[Archive] BC or Kdaii 'Deathstar'

themanbelow:

Just thinking out aloud really and not sure if this would qualify as a ‘deathstar’, but in a 2000 point game, could you use a mainly BC lead army effectively?  What are people’s thoughts?

Maybe something like this (sorry havent got book, so points may be a little off)…

Core

31 Chaos Dwarf Infernal Guard, Full command with +1 movement banner - 402

20 Hobbos with Bows Full command - 110

Special

16 Bull Centaurs - GW - Full command - 820

Heroes

Bull Centaur Taur’ruk 210

     Heavy Armour; Shield

     Dawnstone

     Dragonhelm

     Gold Sigil Sword

Castellan - BSB - 130

Daemonsmith Sorcerer  + dispell scroll - 120

Rare

Hellcannon 205

MLP:

I think it’s definitely possible for a Bull centaur army. I have made a list I plan to use very similar to yours here except I wouldn’t put that many BC in one unit! I’d prefer to use two units of 6 one with GW and one with shields as a tag team. You can also fit in a small unit for war machine hunting or as a blocker unit.

I think more than 6 BC in a unit they will not get to attack often enough! 8 in a unit would be maximum I think.

I like using Wolf Raiders also to flank the enemy which the Bulls are in combat with. They’re cheap and give easy static combat res.

Da Crusha:

its definitely an interesting idea. with BC’s I think it would be more flexible if it were 3 units of 4, or 4 units of 3. Id make sure each has a musician. I just dont know if they would be able to dish out enough damagethough. against ranked infantry they are already losing combats by 4 before combat starts.

If you put the correct point values it would be easier to analyze.

a big unit of kdaii’s seems to be the way to run them if you dont want them all to burn out. and running them in MSU is just a disaster waiting to happen, they are likely to all burn out by the end of the game.

Marduk:

If I had enough minis I would test the K’daii horde. It dilutes the risk of them burning out.

MLP:

Anyone who buys a horde(I’m asuming 18 for a “real” horde) of Kdaai from forge world has far too many pound coins lying around… 216 of them to be exact!

I think a horde of 18 bull centaurs with great weapons would destroy anything it touched. IF the unit has full contact it’s 36 S6 attacts and Stomps with 2 ranks and a banner it should easily win a combat. Even striking last with GW the damage the opposition would do will barely be noticed!

Saying that, getting them into the righ place would be the problem. 30cm frontage is going to be tricky to maneouvre and a bigger problem is finding a unit large enough to be worth fighting. You need to be against another large based horde to get the most out of the unit.

Marduk:

I think a horde of 18 bull centaurs with great weapons would destroy anything it touched. IF the unit has full contact it's 36 S6 attacts and Stomps with 2 ranks and a banner it should easily win a combat. Even striking last with GW the damage the opposition would do will barely be noticed!

MLP
This calculation assumes that bull centaurs get multiple supporting attacks. I thought this rule was only for Monstrous Infantry (Monstrous Support). Does it apply to Monstrous Beasts as well?

MLP:

I think a horde of 18 bull centaurs with great weapons would destroy anything it touched. IF the unit has full contact it's 36 S6 attacts and Stomps with 2 ranks and a banner it should easily win a combat. Even striking last with GW the damage the opposition would do will barely be noticed!

MLP
This calculation assumes that bull centaurs get multiple supporting attacks. I thought this rule was only for Monstrous Infantry (Monstrous Support). Does it apply to Monstrous Beasts as well?


Marduk
I did say that it was asuming IF the unit was in full contact. But the rules for monstrous infantry are the same for infantry as far as I'm aware.

Bitterman:

Yeah, the rulebook omits the “multiple supporting attacks” stuff for Monstrous Cavalry and Monstrous Beasts, but it is in the FAQ (available from GW’s website).

I’d love to do a horde of 6x3 K’daai. But at £216 it’s not happening, and even if I did, a 1000 point unit has a lot of pressure on it to do well! Granted, it makes the unit not care about burn-out any more, but still… the game will be won or lost based on whether that unit kills enough enemy. Always the risk with a deathstar obviously, but A THOUSAND POINTS???

Marduk:

Yeah, the rulebook omits the "multiple supporting attacks" stuff for Monstrous Cavalry and Monstrous Beasts, but it is in the FAQ (available from GW's website).

I'd love to do a horde of 6x3 K'daai. But at £216 it's not happening, and even if I did, a 1000 point unit has a lot of pressure on it to do well! Granted, it makes the unit not care about burn-out any more, but still... the game will be won or lost based on whether that unit kills enough enemy. Always the risk with a deathstar obviously, but A THOUSAND POINTS???

Bitterman
Thank you for clarifying the multiple supporting attacks.

I don't like deathstars for several reasons but I would like to see a duel between a k'daai deathstar and an ogre deathstar.

themanbelow:

Yeah, the rulebook omits the "multiple supporting attacks" stuff for Monstrous Cavalry and Monstrous Beasts, but it is in the FAQ (available from GW's website).

I'd love to do a horde of 6x3 K'daai. But at £216 it's not happening, and even if I did, a 1000 point unit has a lot of pressure on it to do well! Granted, it makes the unit not care about burn-out any more, but still... the game will be won or lost based on whether that unit kills enough enemy. Always the risk with a deathstar obviously, but A THOUSAND POINTS???

Bitterman
Thank you for clarifying the multiple supporting attacks.

I don't like deathstars for several reasons but I would like to see a duel between a k'daai deathstar and an ogre deathstar.


Marduk
Yes indeed.  I'm not a 'proper' player (just like to play it inside my head mostly) but after hearing a lot about Ogre deathstars and the fact they seem to be doing rather well at tournaments now (and mostly based on their deathstars), I was wondering whether we could counter that, and maybe even better it.

I suppose it also begs the question, which would be better against them, a K'daai or a BC deathstar (and then with or without a Taur'ruk)?

MLP:

Well I think that Bull Centaurs would be better against an Ogre deathstar, their tougness, armour and wounds would let them take the ogre’s hits and they could grind them down with great weapons.

Kdaii are more suited to taking on lower strength enemies. Although they have more attacks they don’t have weapon options and suffer unstable wounds if they do lose the combat. Combined with the fact that Fireborn don’t get a standard or musician and they can’t have the Taur’uk.

Bitterman:

While I don’t think Unstable matters much (better than failing a Break test!), I agree on weapon options, standard, and musician - but I think the most important point is the last you alluded to; not only can K’daai not be joined by a Taur’uk, they can’t be joined by anyone. Part of what makes Ogre deathstars so scary is that they can have all kinds of crazy combat characters and (still quite good in combat) spellcasters in the unit - increasing damage output but also considerably more difficult to wound (which, with more than one in the front rank, makes a real difference as many of the enemy can’t attack their R&F). I don’t think even an 18-model 1000-point K’daai unit could go toe to toe with a well-designed Ogre deathstar.

I’m not completely sure that BCs could, either, but they’d probably stand a better chance than Fireborn. The K’daai would do better against some other targets, though.

Baggronor:

Well I think that Bull Centaurs would be better against an Ogre deathstar, their tougness, armour and wounds would let them take the ogre's hits and they could grind them down with great weapons.
The -1 to Wound rule on the K'Daai is better than being T5. The K'Daai also strike before the Ogres, and have the auto-hits and the ward save. Cast Ash Storm on the Ogres and the K'Daai will tear them to shreds. Think they'll do much better than BCs.
K'Daai also don't have to worry about panic or an unlucky break test.

But trying to fight a Deathstar with a Deathstar is silly ;) That's what chaff is for.

MLP:

Well I think that Bull Centaurs would be better against an Ogre deathstar, their tougness, armour and wounds would let them take the ogre's hits and they could grind them down with great weapons.
The -1 to Wound rule on the K'Daai is better than being T5. The K'Daai also strike before the Ogres, and have the auto-hits and the ward save. Cast Ash Storm on the Ogres and the K'Daai will tear them to shreds. Think they'll do much better than BCs.
K'Daai also don't have to worry about panic or an unlucky break test.

But trying to fight a Deathstar with a Deathstar is silly ;) That's what chaff is for.


Baggronor
Good points! I'm probably biased as I don't have any Fireborn models to play with. Even with those I do still think Bulls would fare better though. And like Bitterman said, the big thing is the characters in the deathstar; Kdaai will have none, Bull Centaurs maybe one and Ogre's potentially four(maybe more?!).

Gmaleron:

The past few games I have been playing I have no been impressed really with the Bull Centaurs but for some reason I always seem to have some bad luck with them. I have yet to try the Fireborn (next game) but am looking forward to it (especially with the ash storm spell). :hat off

maded12:

Why not put a hero on a carpet in a unit of bc’s? That way they become stubborn as well.

Gmaleron:

Why not put a hero on a carpet in a unit of bc's? That way they become stubborn as well.

maded12
Different base size would be an issue there, opponents could target the guy on the carpet with magic missiles or shooting units which would be a quick 100+ VP's

Cavetroll:

…and a character with a carpet cannot join units.

MLP:

Why not put a hero on a carpet in a unit of bc's? That way they become stubborn as well.

maded12
To be honest, as long as the BSB and general are nearby you shouldn't need to be stubborn. A horde of Bulls isn't going to take many wounds against most opponents so you shouldn't lose the combat by much. Even with low attacks, the toughness of the Bulls should even things out. Also you'd have ranks and a banner for static combat res.

Golder Goldeater:

Anyone who buys a horde(I'm asuming 18 for a "real" horde) of Kdaai from forge world has far too many pound coins lying around... 216 of them to be exact!

MLP
;P Your mind doesn't even go towards conversions as a solution does it? ;P