Gnoblar_Herder:
First sorry if this is in the wrong place; it does concern lists, but also rules also modelling.
So, I am trying to build up a list for my CD army, but I need some advice as to what rules I am actually using to do this.
I have the Tamurkhan, so have the LoA rules. I have a copy of the Ravening Hordes CD army book. But when I have looked at other lists all over the internet, some lists have units in them that I have never heard of or seen; Black Orcs, Chaos Dwarf Zealot Bezerkers, characters such as Gorduz backstabber?. etc
Is there another rule book that I can use that has these things in that I don’t know about? If it helps, I will never be playing in tournaments (those days are long gone) and only in a “friendly” games club setting.
I want to put a list together and then start building (buying) models around that list. I am intending to use both the old “big hat” models and the FW models. But I don’t want to make a unit of say Zealot bezerkers if they aren’t actually allowed on a list (although they do sound great!).
Thanks for any advice in advance
G_H
Dînadan:
Those lists are probably using a ‘fandex’. The most well known on here is Thommy H’s I think. The one I personally plan on using in my clubs upcoming campaign/league is the one from the Warhammmer Army project. There are probably others out there if you want to google them.
Thommy H:
Long story short:
Ravening Hordes was a booklet given away free in White Dwarf at the beginning of 6th Edition - a series of get-you-by lists for all the existing armies in the game, including Chaos Dwarfs. These lists were obviously superseded by the release of the new Armies books, but Chaos Dwarfs never got one. In fact, the RH list was almost immediately outdated because the O&G book changed the Animosity rules that they used! For most of 6th Edition, Chaos Dwarfs were barely mentioned in the background - they got a couple of snippets when Ogre Kingdoms were released, but that’s all - until Storm of Chaos when the Hellcannon arrived. This led to a sudden surge in Chaos Dwarf popularity, and the CDO community really came out of this time period.
7th Edition saw an increase in mentions of Chaos Dwarfs, with a Black Library novel, a paragraph in the new rulebook and loads and loads of stuff in the Warriors of Chaos book. This all fuelled the creativity of the community, because now the RH rules were very out of date, with a number of inconsistencies that couldn’t be reconciled easily in 7th Edition (Bull Centaurs being the best example). Naturally enough, people started writing their own rules. There were a number of embryonic unofficial Warhammer Armies books floating around during this period, but things really kicked off with some American players put together the “Indy GT book”. This was an entire Armies book that would be officially recognised in independent tournaments in North America. It was quite popular for a while, but development ended on it when the writers became discouraged by the changes in 8th Edition. Around the same time, I wrote my own book, the development of which continued well into 8th Edition.
All this was rendered a bit moot when Tamurkhan came out with its Legion of Azgorh list. Unfortunately, just like RH, this was also outdated almost as it was released, as it was originally developed before the 8th Edition Armies books came out, and has a lot of hangovers from 7th Edition in it (different points costs for command models, for example). A lot of people (myself included) also find the list unsatisfactory in general, with odd ideas, wonky points costs and poorly explained rules. The Warhammer Army Project book was a reaction to this, collating a lot of ideas from LoA and other fanlists into one document. At one point it included stuff from my book, but I asked the author to remove it.
So that’s where we are now. LoA supersedes RH and updates it for 8th Edition, but there were about 10 years when we were on our own, and some people still use those rules in friendly games. Because of the dissatisfaction with LoA, and because they enjoyed it, some people carried on writing their own stuff. If you won’t be playing tournaments or pick-up games, you can pick whichever list you prefer to use, but only the one in Tamurkhan is “official”.
Gnoblar_Herder:
Thanks for this.
So, in reality the LoA is the only official list. So could I ask then;
In your experience, do people object to playing against fan lists?
Thommy H; could I ask; I am assuming that you use your book when playing CD, in your own book have you expanded the troop types you can have (for example the above mentioned Zealot Bezerkers, or other units like this) and have you converted and built models around your own book?
I fully intend to have a good look at your book, if that’s ok. Do people tend to be quite happy to play your CD army using this book?
Thanks
G_H
Thommy H:
I don’t play pick-up games (or many games at all really these days), but I wouldn’t personally expect a given opponent to accept a fan-made list, no. Even with a lot of playtesting and so forth, people are always going to be suspicious of it, and given how quick people online are to dismiss even a GW book as broken or nerfed, the chances of them thinking something some guy cooked up online is balanced is pretty much nil. But if you play with a group, let them read the list you want to use first and decide if they’ll allow it.
My book has a few new units in excess of those included in Tamurkhan, including special characters and the usual mix of specialist units you’d find in a real Armies book. I have some models in my own army based on these, but most of my collection could also be used with the LoA in one form or another.
Feedback from using my book has been fairly positive, although there’s literally only a handful people using it, I believe. It was developed over some years so there’s been a lot of playtesting and player feedback incorporated along the way. I think it’s balanced, but it only takes one bad loss for an opponent to decide it’s completely broken!
Dînadan:
The best thing you can do is (if possible) ask your opponent well in advance if they’re okay with you using the fandex.
Another thing you could do is write two lists - one from your chosen fandex and one from LoA. That way you have an official book to fall back on if your opponent objects. From a collecting stand point, initially focus on units that can double up as units from LoA (e.g. Goblin Slaves can double up as Hobgoblins when playing games with LoA); Zealot Berserkers probably wouldn’t work with this as there’s nothing in the LoA list that is similar, but on the other hand they could be used as Slayers if you ever chose to use the vanilla dwarf book for some reason.
Gnoblar_Herder:
...but on the other hand they could be used as Slayers if you ever chose to use the vanilla dwarf book for some reason.
Dînadan
Um...that will never happen... ;)
Thanks again for the advice. I am finding that I am just having lots of trouble getting my army off the ground. I really love the fluff and the look of both the FW and big hat CD (although, yet again I have just watched 20 lots of them slip through my fingers on ebay...at this rate it will be cheaper just to commission someone to
make me a CD army at £198 per model)
I am sure that when I actually get them going they will be a force to be reckoned with (when I actually get them going :( )
G_H