Alric:
Ive noticed chaos dwarf army fan list do not have black orcs in them is there a reason why ? Since they were created by chaos dwarfs shouldnt there be at least one unit of black orcs in the army ?
Thommy H:
The Black Orcs rebelled against the Chaos Dwarfs and nearly destroyed Zharr-Naggrund. Only the betrayal of the Hobgoblins saved them, and since that time Black Orcs haven’t been allowed inside the city. Chaos Dwarfs no longer keep any Black Orcs as slaves because they’re impossible to control, but they do allow Black Orc tribes to live in the Dark Lands nearby so they can recruit them as mercenaries. So, in other words, even though they created them, they’re rather less likely to have them in their armies than other Greenskins.
One of the first things most fan lists do is take a stance on the “Orcs and Goblins” issue. Are Greenskins removed altogether, or do we preserve the units from another list in all their glory? Most people take the view that it’s bad form to include things from another army wholesale, and that it’s better to come up with a generic alternative - such as an all-encompassing “Slaves” unit or just leaving Hobgoblins in. Sadly, while Black Orcs can be justified by this same logic, it’s rather harder to include them as something that isn’t just Black Orcs from the O&G book. No one wants to just copy out rules from elsewhere and put them in their own list after all.
If there was some way to do “generic Black Orcs”, you’d probably see them more often.
Grimstonefire:
Armoured slaves? As they don’t have animosity they don’t really play a whole lot like most orcs anyway, if you know what I mean ;) Not sure if it was a link or army thread on here but someone just uses chaos warriors instead (‘counts as’).
Thommy H:
In my list, I considered having an option to upgrade one unit of Slaves to “Bigger Slaves” (or something less inane) that would be T4, have 25mm bases and options for additional hand weapons and such, but the Slaves entry was getting a bit bloated already, and there’s only so far you can go with the one-unit-to-represent-everything concept, I think.
Bassman:
It’s a pity most of the people today are against the idea to “share” some troops with other armies. When I started to play in 5th edition it was more common and I liked it a lot.
IMO it adds a lot in terms of fashion to the game, but it could be just me getting old… :s
I cannot see the contraddiction between BOs and Chaos dwarf army. We breeded them, we were betrayed and we banned them from our city but we are still able to “promise” them a good price as mercenaries and throw them into the heat of the battle and see them diying for us! Eventually we do not have to pay them at the end. Orcs are too stupid to understand our plan.
I do not see my orcs as slaves, my dwarfs promised them a part of the pillage, if they survive the battle they can claim some rubbish we throw at them, if not… well it’s our gain 
Only goblins could really considered slaves… but who uses them? :~
Thommy H:
No one is suggesting there’s a contradiction with including them - just that if you’re going to rule out Orcs and Goblins as they appear in their own book (as most fan lists do) then it’s hard to justify Black Orcs per se too.
Remember that we’re not talking about including them in your actual army here - this is regarding fan lists. There is an aversion to “sharing troops” in that context because it’s a nebulous area regarding copyright and also feels faintly untidy.
Willmark:
I like them there personally, GW has this stance simply for logistics, nothing more.
Kera foehunter:
i use them but there no good in a sea battle
unless you invading Davy jones locker
Alric:
Looking back on the “canon” …
“Using evil magic and careful selection the Chaos Dwarf created a new type of Orc: stronger than an ordinary Orc but more loyal and not given to squabbling. This is how the race of Black Orcs came into being” and… "far too independent-minded to make good slaves"
now add something like this…
"After the last green skin rebellion lead by the first black orcs , the chaos dwarfs realized that the black orcs were more valuable as warriors than as slaves in their armies. The chaos dwarfs purged all traitor black orcs from the land and only kept those that were loyal to serve in their army. The rebellions by the green skins taught the chaos dwarfs the danger of having large numbers of slaves in their army ranks, and only use them in small numbers now. The chaos dwarfs continue to use loyal black orcs in their army but in smaller numbers, these black orcs are carefully bred by the chaos dwarf sorcerers to insure their loyalty. The chaos dwarfs also use hobgoblins in their army who serve only their chaos dwarf masters."
Instead of dropping black orcs from the list keep them and hobgoblins , drop regular orc and goblin units, but allow one “special” unit of orc and goblin slaves in an army.
add…
Black Orcs are not affected by animosity like other orcs, goblins and hobgoblins.
Orcs and goblins are affected by animosity, if your army contains hobgoblins then the orcs and goblins will automatically pass their animosity test because they mistrust the hobgoblins to much to squabble amongst their selves.(because of the betrayal by the hobgoblins in the rebellion)
Hobgoblins are affected by animosity, if your army contains black orcs then the hobgoblins will automatically pass their animosity test because they mistrust the black orcs to much to squabble amongst their selves.(because of the rebellion of the first black orcs)
The goals here is to continue to include the green skins in the chaos dwarf army in a way that reflects the background of the chaos dwarfs , and to do it in a way that a chaos dwarf army doesn’t resemble (looks or acts) an orc and goblin army.
With limits to black orc, orc and goblin units and limited animosity for those units you can have an army with only a few green skin units that are not prone to animosity and still have a slaver army aspect to it.
:hat
P.S.
I re-posted this in the rules forums btw.
Swissdictator:
I like them in the list. Though I can see keeping the 0-1… or 1 per lord choice or something similar.
That way we have them, but are slightly restricted compared to normal O&G.
Thommy H:
Alric: no one has an issue with the concept of Black Orcs working for the Chaos Dwarfs. That’s not the problem here. The idea that most people baulk out is the unfashionable “sharing units”. If you look at most fan lists, they don’t contain normal Orcs or Goblins either. By the same token, no one wants to just shove Black Orcs in as they appear in the O&G book. We would prefer some kind of generic alternative.
It’s a gamist issue, not a fluff issue.
Willmark:
The sharing units is more of a GW thing it seems. GW appears to want to have each army be its own entity, which is fine on one level.
This really only effects Dogs of War and Chaos Dwarfs.
That being said I think the inclusion of the Hellcannon for WoC was because it was a test to gauge Chaos Dwarf interest (perhaps) and because it was a cool albeit expensive model…
Bassman:
I can undestand the “cut and paste” rule issue but I see many people copying heartshaker rules or blunderbusses rules so I do not understand why not goblins, orcs and black orcs.
No problem for me if people invent new names for stuff like hobgoblins and weapons under GW copyright but this is the only reason.
Yes you could call them “bigger slaves with a 25 mm base” but why do not call them just “orcs”? 
Thommy H:
but I see many people copying heartshaker rules or blunderbusses rules so I do not understand why not goblins, orcs and black orcs.Those are things that are already in the Chaos Dwarf army...
It's not a copyright issue, really, more like a "stand on your own two feet" issue. GW's current Armies Books generally don't share rules any more. There is some occasional overlap (Ogres and Giants show up in a few places) but using units from another army isn't very fashionable any more. So, since most fanlists leave out Orcs and Goblins as straight up borrowed units from the O&G book, it stands to reason that Black Orcs have to go too.
I don't know any more ways to explain it. The whole "half the army is O&G" concept is just considered a bit archaic by most of the people who like to write rules. Chaos Dwarfs have enough interesting concepts to fill out an army with their own units now.
Grimstonefire:
That being said I think the inclusion of the Hellcannon for WoC was because it was a test to gauge Chaos Dwarf interest (perhaps) and because it was a cool albeit expensive model...I'm sure it was probably because they lacked any decent sort of long ranged attack, the equivalent of including a trebuchet in brets, screaming skull catapult in TK, scrap launcher in OK etc..
Willmark
I asked Phil this exact question at games day last year, his reply was 'don't you want it there? We included it because people have spent time and money building them so it felt right to include it'. Clearly it was mainly for those who currently had it, not anything to do with CD players.
Lord_Nagash:
"After the last green skin rebellion lead by the first black orcs , the chaos dwarfs realized that the black orcs were more valuable as warriors than as slaves in their armies. The chaos dwarfs purged all traitor black orcs from the land and only kept those that were loyal to serve in their army. The rebellions by the green skins taught the chaos dwarfs the danger of having large numbers of slaves in their army ranks, and only use them in small numbers now. The chaos dwarfs continue to use loyal black orcs in their army but in smaller numbers, these black orcs are carefully bred by the chaos dwarf sorcerers to insure their loyalty. The chaos dwarfs also use hobgoblins in their army who serve only their chaos dwarf masters."I like that! I feel they would have to be 0-1 choice. No exceptions.