[Archive] Black Shard armor plus BRB magic armor + Best AS Challenge

KingFisher:

Part 1 Question.
Hey I was talking with my brother and he says you cannot have 2 magical armors on a character. For example adding a enchanted shield to a Castellan hero’s Blackshard armor improving his armor save to a 2+.

I agree you can’t have 2 magical armors from the BRB list on a character.

He says this is the rule for WoC, can anyone who owns the Tamurkhan book or is familiar with the rules give us some clarification?

Part 2 Challenge.

Design the best AS possible LoA characters!

Sorc-Prophet

Daemonsmith

Dark Castellan

Bull Centaur Taur-ruk

Hobgoblin Khan

list the best mounted and unmounted possible you can math out!

Thommy H:

He’s right that you can’t have two items from the magic armour category on one model (in fact, you can’t have two items from any single category on one model) but Blackshard Armour isn’t magic armour so it’s irrelevant. I’m not sure why he’s citing WoC either, because all their characters have Chaos armour and that would mean none of them could wear magic armour, which is nonsense.

And best armour save possible? Anything with Blackshard armour, Enchanted Shield and the Dragonhelm will have a 1+ armour save, and that’s as high as you can go.

rabotak:

can you equip dragonhelm AND enchanted shield? i thought you couldn’t…

i think you are supposed to replace bs-armour with e.g. armour of the furnace, but shields or helms are fine, at least that is how we interpret this.

nilbog:

Dragonhelm and enchanted shield are both armour, so no.

2+ is the best you can get:

blackshard armour + dragon helm + shield

blackshard armour + enchanted shield - best for daemonsmith/lord as he can’t take a normal shield, although charmed shield or shield of ptolos are good alternatives vs shooting if he’s on his own

armour of bazherak (spelling?)

armour of silvered steel

For a khan, light armour, wolf, enchanted shield or normal shield and dragonhelm for 3+.

Add dawnstone for rerolls or a ward save if you’re concerned about killing blow.

Don’t use armour of destiny/armour of fortune though - you’ll be paying points to have a worse armour save than normal.

Thommy H:

Yep, you’re quite right - for some reason I thought it was a Talisman or something. Anyway, the point still stands that it’s not exactly a complex process to calculate the best save available.

KingFisher:

Yep, you're quite right - for some reason I thought it was a Talisman or something. Anyway, the point still stands that it's not exactly a complex process to calculate the best save available.

Thommy H
Oh I agree, So where does it say black shard armor is not magical?

"Blackshard Armour
Rightly are the Chaos Dwarfs known as the armourers of the dark powers, and their creations are made not simply from iron and fire, but blood, souls and the hell-stuff of Chaos itself. Blackshard armour confers a 4+ Armour save and in addition a 5+ Ward save against flaming attacks."

Sure does sound magical, hence his concern.

Xander:

The confusion is in grammar, “you can’t have two magical armours on one model” which is not a rule at all is different from, “you can’t have two items from the magic armour category on one model” which is a rule.

So regardless of whether the armour is magical, it’s not a magic item.

Thommy H:

Correct. The description is irrelevant.

Hashut’s Blessing:

Never confuse fluff with rules - the rules is that you can’t use two pieces of magic equipment from one category (e.g. armour) on one model. Nowehere does it say that Blacksahrd Armour is magical (or magic armour). Therefore, you can have any of the magic armour from the rulebook (although, if it is a suit of armour, you lose the Blackshard, obviously).

Ugly Green Trog:

The way I see it any suit of magical armour would replace the blackshard therefore making the fire ward irellevant but shields/helms talismans etc are fine as they aren’t actually suits of armour. Blackshard isnt classed as magic armour so as long as the item you are equiping doesnt have the Light armour or heavy armour type then its fine to take an additional item from the list.

RTMaitreya:

Only a suit of magical armor from the magical items list would replace the blackshard (non-magical) armor.  Other selections from the list (helmets, shields) do not remove your blackshard armor.  You can only have ONE item of magical ANYTHING from the list of magical armors, however, so you could not have a magical helm and a magical shield together.  They both count as magical armor from the magical armor list, and therefore they squabble as if you had two girlfriends holding your arm and head at the same time.

As for the initial poster’s dilemma, I don’t see how anyone could confuse light armor, heavy armor, chaos armor, and blackshard armor with the magical armor selections of any kind.  This is especially troubling to me because it seems like your brother suggest that chaos armor from the warriors of chaos list also counts as magical armor, and has to be removed, for example, should you choose to select an enchanted shield from the magical armor list.  Um, why, exactly?  I also don’t see how two people out of nine agree with the brother in the poll.  I need to hear someone give me a clear rebuttal to describe their position, because I’m absolutely not seeing it at all.  I mean NOT at all.  

I ask of those people this question: what types of basic armor do they believe count as a magical armor selection, and which don’t?  Do they think Gromril armor counts as magical?  Runesmiths are said to intone mighty words of power when they forge them.  What about full plate armor?  The forges of Nuln are rumored to be stoked with warpstone-laced coal.  What about heavy armor on a daemon?  These are real questions I would ask them, and I haven’t even gone into hyperbole yet. . . in person, I would prattle on and on getting more ridiculous (in my own mind) as the interrogation proceeded (e.g., light armor on Bretonnian peasant vs. light armor on Skaven clanrats, etc.)  At some point they would have to say “yes, that counts as normal non-magical armor”.  Where is that point for them, and why is it different than what I perceive?

EDIT - Just saw that Ugly Green Trog was a voter for “no” but his answer reads “yes” with respect to the specifics of the question, so we vehemently agree so far. Not sure who other vote “no” was, but I’m guessing it was the same kind of thing. . .

Time of Madness:

Only a suit of magical armor from the magical items list would replace the blackshard (non-magical) armor.  Other selections from the list (helmets, shields) do not remove your blackshard armor.  You can only have ONE item of magical ANYTHING from the list of magical armors, however, so you could not have a magical helm and a magical shield together.  They both count as magical armor from the magical armor list, and therefore they squabble as if you had two girlfriends holding your arm and head at the same time.

RTMaitreya
This thread is depressing, there is not much to discuss. See above RTMaitreya spells it out nicely.

I like taking the enchanted shield with the blackshard for the 2+ save!
Time of Madness

nilbog:

Cheapest and best I can come up with (for the battle standard) is blackshard armour, shield, dragonhelm, dawnstone, black hammer. 202 points, 2+ rerollable, S6 with no ASL and more effect against flammable opponents. Leaves enchanted shield for the sorcerer or daemonsmith should you want it; if not, blackshard armour, enchanted shield, dawnstone, black hammer is 200 points for more or less the same effect but lower ward save against flaming attacks.

200 points for a BSB is not cheap, but at least they are stubborn, for which it would cost 35 points from the BRB.

Groznit Goregut:

I have to admit I am used to using a Ward save for my BSB, but that’s b/c OnG have to have one alive. If you want to go with THE best saves you can get you need to give the BSB Talisman of Preservation and Enchanted Shield. That gives your BSB a 2+ AS and 4+ Ward Save.

Also, if you go past the original question about whether it’s magical or not, the original poster asks what do we think the best builds are. So, I don’t think the thread is useless.

Hashut’s Blessing:

The problem with the poll is that the question is wrong - you can’t wear a suit of magical armour AND a suit of Blackshard armour. You can replace your BS with a magical suit or use a magic helm/shield with the BS.

Regarding the question for the build, as Thommy H said, it’s kind of irrelevant and in the wrong section. There are so many combinations of items, but the 1+ armour save is possible (when mounted) and in several different ways that, ultimately, there isn’t a “best one” - 1+AS, 4+WS is the best you can get, basically, however you choose to get it.