Bolg:
I’ve face up against a horde of blunderbussens (with a horde of Savage orcs big uns with 5+ ward save).
long story short: I got minced.
tvandyke:
Probably a question that has been raised and answered a thousand times but Im trialling them both with proxy before I commit. What do you use and why?I think when push comes to shove, BB are better. BB are a 6 point upgrade, Fireglaive are a 5 point upgrade. Honestly, I don't think either are worth the points they cost. Not in this army. Points are just too tough to come by. Basically, a unit of 25 IG will cost an additional 125 points for Fireglaives, an additional 150 for BB. 150 points can buy a unit of 30 Hobgoblin Archers, 3 Bull Centarus with GW's, another Magma Cannon, etc. You have to ask yourself if it's worth it to add another 150 points on top of your unit of 25 IG that is already over 300 points or move those points to another point on the table. If you just look at the number of wounds caused, what are you buying for that 150 points of BB. If my calculations are correct and you use a standard unit of T4 models with a 5+ armor save (Lizardmen, Orcs, Dwarfs, Chaos Warriors, Ogres, etc) as an example of a unit you might be targetting, you'll cause about 9 unsaved wounds (2 rounds of shooting, 100 shots, 50 hits, 14 wounds, 5 saved). If you're talking about the better armored troops in that list like Warriors or Dwarfs that number drops to 7 or 5 unsaved wounds before they make contact. Obviously, these numbers change against T3 troops, but my IG don't seem to get charged very often by T3 troops unless they're throwaway units like Skaven Slaves (a Skaven General won't get his main unit anywhere near that BB unit). That unit of 30 Hobgoblin archers on the other hand gives you much more, IMO for your 150 points. It's another drop on the table. It's a cheap, throwaway unit that can run interference for you main troops if need be (something that most CD armies don't have). With 30 shots at 24", you can pick apart small units that might be threatening your war machines and in a pinch, if they're within 12" of your BSB and General, they can hold their own for a bit in hth. A small unit of 3 GW wielding Bull Centaurs can hunt war machines and take on smaller units of flankers, etc. Finally, for 145 points, the Magma Cannon can kill a lot more than 9 wounds worth of models in a game. Up to a 36" range, S5, D3 flaming wounds will rip apart large units and especially muliwound units like Ogre buses.
So far, loving the D3 shots each from the BB and they seem to hold in combat sort of well - took a charge from Tomb King chariots the other day and then beat the carp out of it. Rnage seems an issue though.
Will la tete rouge
Grimbold Blackhammer:
Yes and no. Against a T4, 5+ save enemy, a unit of 22 Blunderbuss models will shoot once for between 5 to 15 wounds. And then a Stand and Shoot will knock off another 5 to 15. However with a little help from our friends in the Lore of Metal, our unit is knocking off between 6 and 20 wounds per volley. Even unbuffed by the Enchanted Blades, I would NOT want to stick any unit in front of that! Ouch! Against elves and humans, they are even more deadly! Now in the real world, will that unit get to shoot twice? Maybe. Will that unit be shooting something valuable? Probably not. But just the threat of that damage will put a pretty big exclusion zone in front of that unit.
The actual value of Blunderbusses changes with each player, their army, and the opponent. They aren’t ZOMG! AUTO WIN!! but they aren’t exactly sucky either.
tvandyke:
Yes and no. Against a T4, 5+ save enemy, a unit of 22 Blunderbuss models will shoot once for between 5 to 15 wounds. And then a Stand and Shoot will knock off another 5 to 15. However with a little help from our friends in the Lore of Metal, our unit is knocking off between 6 and 20 wounds per volley. Even unbuffed by the Enchanted Blades, I would NOT want to stick any unit in front of that! Ouch! Against elves and humans, they are even more deadly! Now in the real world, will that unit get to shoot twice? Maybe. Will that unit be shooting something valuable? Probably not. But just the threat of that damage will put a pretty big exclusion zone in front of that unit.22 BB should average 44 shots. Hitting on 4+, that's 22 hits. A third of those will wound against T4 which is around 7 wounds. There will be 15 misses that you get to re-roll which should end up with another 5 wounds getting us to 12 total. With a 5+ save, a 3rd will be saved for 8 total wounds on average. If you do that twice, that's 16 total wounds. Now, against a unit of 25 or even 30 Saurus, that's pretty damn good. I admit that. If I was going to choose between Fireglaive and BB, I think I'd go BB just for the numbers above. Having said that, I guess it all depends on what you're trying to accomplish. I love the BB in the fluff. My RH list used to have as many as 3 units of 20. With the new list, it just seems I'm fighting to find points to get more "stuff" on the board for both versatility (especially in a 2 day tourny) and appearance (it just looks cool on the battlefield to have more, great looking models). I guess the point I was trying to make was that when you spend those points elsewhere, the effectiveness of the army will at least remain the same and I truely believe, in many cases, gets better with the added benefit of fitting more models into your army.
The actual value of Blunderbusses changes with each player, their army, and the opponent. They aren't ZOMG! AUTO WIN!! but they aren't exactly sucky either.
Grimbold Blackhammer
Grimbold Blackhammer:
Blunderbusses are Armour Piercing so your numbers are very slightly off.
Geist:
No I am not missing out on the reroll to wound bonus. Look at what I describe as the unit I am using. 10 wide 4 deep (thats 40 models), the first statment is telling you how many fire (18) as two characters are taking the spots. I still have way more than the 20 needed to get rerolls.First Crusha thank you for pointing out the banner rule so I did not have to.But then you will be missing out on the "reroll to wound" bonus which is really great to have.
Second my numbers are based on 18 blunderbusses firing. Which, for my brick which is 10 wide and 4 deep, I get 18, 36 or 54 shots depending on the roll. With those numbers I find I don't need to go wider than 10 wide.
Geist
I run my BB unit 6x4 until the enemy comes close when I reform them (23+bsb), to 12 wide.
Singleton Mosby
propervillanz:
I actually like to field 2 units of each 10-12 strong with various characters sprinkled about. I like the fireglaives extra punch in combat and extra range, while i like the amount of fire power you can potentially put out with the blunderbuss.
In a small unit you wont be able to put out to re-roll to wound but i like the versatility the smaller units can provide and the ability it gives them to back each other up in combat.
All in all, i must say either of them is a sound choice it just depends on what you want your units to do. With access to spells like Enchanted Blades, Ruby Sword, and Ashstorm these weapons become pretty dangerous regardless of the number of troops you have shooting.
tvandyke:
Blunderbusses are Armour Piercing so your numbers are very slightly off.Ahh, yes, forgot about that. That accounts for the difference. Details, details. :-)
Grimbold Blackhammer
Grimbold Blackhammer:
No I am not missing out on the reroll to wound bonus. Look at what I describe as the unit I am using. 10 wide 4 deep (thats 40 models), the first statment is telling you how many fire (18) as two characters are taking the spots. I still have way more than the 20 needed to get rerolls.Because missile units only fire in two ranks, a unit of Blunderbuses with any character in the front rank would not get the benefit of rerolls if it were only 10 wide. The unit could have 50 models in it but still less than 20 models firing.
Geist
lukealexandermorton:
You only need 20 models in a unit not 20 firing for rerolls
Grimbold Blackhammer:
You only need 20 models in a unit not 20 firing for rerollsPage 168 disagrees with you.
lukealexandermorton
Glimpse the Void:
I had a block of both in my last game against the unluckiest Vampire counts general on the planet. He had such poor dice that my BB got to stand and shoot 5 times. Everyone who walked by swore they were OP. The horde of Fire glaives did very well too. I usually think the fireglaives perform better but the Blunderbuss were the mvps that night.
Singleton Mosby:
well i dont like blunderbusses.. range is to short, only s3 and too expensive.You are kidding aren't you? Perhaps you should tell what you just said to my Bretonnian opponent last week. He stood in front of my BBs with two units of 9 knights. I let loose at the first one and scored 18 wounds of which he saved all but 6. Enough to make the unit useless. The second unit charged and four more saddles were emptied enabling my dwarfs to easily win the combat.
You wont take much down with them.
ViLe
And this was against knights with a 2+ save!
Karring:
Aye, this is the ever lasting-question…
From my point of view, none of these options is better than the other, just different.
Fireglaives has more Strength and Range, while Blunderbusses are more accurate and multiple-shots, but you need a big amount of them for using its maximun potential.
In other side, Fireglaives are like halberds in Close Combat, while Blunderbusses keep the shield.
As I like to say, all depends of the rest of your army and of your way to playing. Or just of what you like more!
Kharnak:
I faced two units back in 2007 at one of the GT’s,
He had them on his flanks so if I ambushed with my Beastie Boyz, he’d just spin and shoot my beating heart out. That was his defense against Ambushers and Scouts. Tough to work against! I’m thinking two smaller units (in my upgraded army) might be the way to go!
gIL^:
Last few games ive been running 29 Infernal guard with Fireglaives a Castellan and a razer standard. 15x2 and then swift reform into 10x3 it really really nasty and uses all models effectively.
I know it’s expensive but their nails. Horde for combat with halberds. Ouch.
Da Crusha:
Last few games ive been running 29 Infernal guard with Fireglaives a Castellan and a razer standard. 15x2 and then swift reform into 10x3 it really really nasty and uses all models effectively.nice. I haven't heard anybody trying that out yet.
I know it's expensive but their nails. Horde for combat with halberds. Ouch.
gIL^
gIL^:
- the razer standard in combat they get a -3 armour save, alone they beat down 2 chariots, A bloodcrusher bus with a tooled up lord.
Marduk:
+ the razer standard in combat they get a -3 armour save, alone they beat down 2 chariots, A bloodcrusher bus with a tooled up lord.-3 Armour Save?
gIL^
How?
Grimbold Blackhammer:
I believe that to be incorrect. Blunderbuss shots are already armour piercing so the Razor Standard would only effect the close combat attacks.