Swissdictator:
Groznit: Could it be more cultural then biological? Basically they’re a little more barbaric as due to they’re being at society’s top in a society such as the Dawi Zharr they don’t have to give a hoot about certain societal norms?
Thommy H:
Bear in mind that they don’t actually lead Chaos Dwarf society. They’re not the “top tier” in society - they guard the top tier (literally and figuratively). The Chaos Dwarf characters are still the main generals of the armies, and the Sorcerers rule the city. The leaders of the Bull Centaurs, at best, are used to commanding a small cadre of elite troops, not masterminding an entire campaign or ruling over an empire. They’re the brawn, not the brains.
Kera foehunter:
Groznit: Could it be more cultural then biological? Basically they're a little more barbaric as due to they're being at society's top in a society such as the Dawi Zharr they don't have to give a hoot about certain societal norms?yea its the same with us pirates too
Swissdictator
Border Reiver:
Carrying on with this idea - think of the Jannissary troops of the Ottoman Empire. They were an elite unit that was favoured as a result of their loyalty. That didn't make them steadier troops in battle, or better fighters, it just made them favoured.
Bear in mind that they don't actually lead Chaos Dwarf society. They're not the "top tier" in society - they guard the top tier (literally and figuratively). The Chaos Dwarf characters are still the main generals of the armies, and the Sorcerers rule the city. The leaders of the Bull Centaurs, at best, are used to commanding a small cadre of elite troops, not masterminding an entire campaign or ruling over an empire. They're the brawn, not the brains.
Thommy H
Piccolo:
I just wanted to point out that in the past (5th edition) bull centaur characters were a lot stronger than CD characters.
The stats of bull centaur characters (5th ed):
Hero 8 6 5 5 5 3 5 4 10
Lord 8 7 6 5 5 4 6 5 10
in fact even normal bull centaurs were stroner as they had an aditional wound and point of leadership; they couldn’t wear heavy armor though but the aditional wound more than made up for that.
As to the ‘raveging hordes’ rules, many creatures were made weaker for no apparent fluff reason in that list to ‘balance things out’ i supose. If a new cd army ever comes out i think there is a good chance that bull centaurs will be stronger (if they include them in the book at all :P)
Thommy H:
Chaos Dwarf characters were also stronger in 5th Edition than their current incarnations though - all characters were toned down for 6th Edition.
Groznit Goregut:
Carrying on with this idea - think of the Jannissary troops of the Ottoman Empire. They were an elite unit that was favoured as a result of their loyalty. That didn't make them steadier troops in battle, or better fighters, it just made them favoured.Do you really want to talk about Jannissary troops right after someone says that the elite troops didn't control the empire? :)
Border Reiver
I also think that talking about Jannissary troops brings into what point of the Ottoman Empire you are talking about. In the first few hundred years, they were a lot better than normal infantry and were stubborn on the battlefield. It is only with the decline of the Empire that they just turned into regular troops that were favored.
Overall, let's just say that I would be really interested to see how things would look in a new army book. Then again, who on these forums would say anything different?
Piccolo:
Chaos Dwarf characters were also stronger in 5th Edition than their current incarnations though - all characters were toned down for 6th Edition.Not really, chaos dwarf characters were basically the same as they are now in raveging hordes. They only had 1 point higher initiative and higher balistic skill which don't really matter anyway.
Thommy H
the heroes did have +1 T but normal dwarfs were decreased in toughness in the 6th ed so i can understand that change
(of course im talkin about fighter heroes, not mages)
Border Reiver:
BC characters also had 1 more wound, but that was because rank and file BCs had 2 wounds back then.
Thommy H:
the heroes did have +1 T but normal dwarfs were decreased in toughness in the 6th ed so i can understand that changeNo they weren't - the basic stats of almost all races were kept the same, only the way that Heroes scale up was changed.
Piccolo:
sry for not making myself clear. I meant to say that Chaos Dwarf heroes lost 1 point of toughness just as there equivalents in the normal dwarf army. I didn't mean rank and file troops.the heroes did have +1 T but normal dwarfs were decreased in toughness in the 6th ed so i can understand that changeNo they weren't - the basic stats of almost all races were kept the same, only the way that Heroes scale up was changed.
Thommy H
CheTralfara:
4th and 5th edition were known as herohammer for a reason… the stats of characters were ridiculous back then… i wouldn’t use them to compare to what they are now or what they should be… characters were made more reasonable in 6th edition to shift the game to being about ranked units rather than who’s character can obliterate the entire army first.
.nick
Tarrakk Blackhand:
Ok, no problem. I don’t think there’s much Fluff-wise as to why the drop. I was just going off the RH pdf. At least it was better than me saying “That’s just the way it is!”. 
Basically they’re a little more barbaric as due to they’re being at society’s top in a society such as the Dawi Zharr they don’t have to give a hoot about certain societal norms?Yeah…and their table manners are attrocious! they don’t even know which side of the plate the salad fork goes on!
Swiss
cornixt:
The scale-up is not even fully consistant over most armies. Back then you could scale any creature up from a base profile (and for unexplainable reasons, wizards became combat monsters too), but now some armies have heroes that have strength/toughness increases but others dont (having Initiative/WS/BS increases instead)the heroes did have +1 T but normal dwarfs were decreased in toughness in the 6th ed so i can understand that changeNo they weren't - the basic stats of almost all races were kept the same, only the way that Heroes scale up was changed.
Thommy H
Thommy H:
That’s because some scale-ups are more powerful than others. For example, Ld 10 Heroes aren’t usually considered a good idea but, by the normal scaling, Dwarfs should get that. This is what happened in Ravening Hordes, and it got toned down for Dwarfs at the first opportunity.
CheTralfara:
I also think scaling should be different for every army… (where they are scaled up)… i’m a beleiver in the rules being written to reflect the miniature/fantasy character/monster/creature/fighter as much as possible… so the rules reflect what the miniature is supposed to be… rather than just being random numbers… it’s the fluff and miniatures and fantasy that makes these games fun… at least for me.
Groznit Goregut:
Some slight threadomancy with this thread. I just got the White Dwarf Presents: Chaos Dwarfs (WDP: CD) and I was reading up on Bull Centaurs.
They are as keen witted and intelligent as Chaos Dwarfs and completely devoted to the worship of Hashut, the Father of Darkness. The Chaos Dwarf Sorcerers trust them completely, and often entrust them with complex or dangerous tasks. Although they are few in number they are more powerful than Chaos Dwarfs and much swifter in battle. Even though there are mighty individuals amongst them, there are no sorcerers in their number.To be honest, I don’t understand why more CD armies aren’t run by Bull Centaurs? They have LD 10 in the old stats and probably should in the new.
Thommy H:
Why aren’t modern armies led by Marines or the SAS?
There just aren’t that many Bull Centaurs, and they’re subject (one would imagine) to deployment by the Sorcerers’ conclave. Unlike the rest of Chaos Dwarf society, they don’t seem to be beholden to individual Sorcerers - this would mean it might well be difficult to have them show up in everyone’s army. They’re a Rare choice, after all.
Furthermore, remember that that Bull Centaur Lord is 0-1 - that implies to me that there’s only one of him (i.e. he’s a special character, to all intents and purposes), and we can imagine Heroes are likewise pretty rare. So, while it would be nice to have the best possible leaders commanding every little band of slave raiders, practically speaking there may be only a dozen or so Bull Centaur characters hanging around the Chaos Dwarf empire, and they probably don’t listen to the whims of Sorcerers. Rather, they serve as a kind of elite religious order, deployed very sparingly.
Groznit Goregut:
I understand that they would be rare and one way of dictating that they are rare would be by making them more expensive.
What I don’t get, though, is the lower Leadership. The fluff I read says that they aren’t feral or less intelligent than regular chaos dwarf heroes. My original post was asking why BC heroes were not as good as CD heroes (LD score wise). I did get a lot of answers that said maybe they are more feral or mutated, but the fluff contradicts it.
Thommy H:
It’s a game reason: Chaos Dwarfs are, by their nature, a slow moving army. Their basic troop type has Move 3. When you’re selecting a general for your army, which are you going to pick - the combat monster with M 8, or the guy with legs as stumpy as those of his followers? It’s a no-brainer, isn’t it?
Unless…one has better Leadership than the other. Chaos Dwarf Heroes have higher Leadership, so the choice is a bit more interesting.
And, as has been mentioned, the high Leadership of Chaos Dwarf Heroes is an anomaly. The normal progression for Hero-level characteristics was slavishly obeyed even for Dwarfs in Ravening Hordes (giving them Ld 10 Heroes - something no other army has). In future versions of normal Dwarfs, they have Ld 9, which is what you would expect for a hypothetical future Chaos Dwarf army too.