Groznit Goregut:
I have a question about Bull Centaur Heroes. If I am not mistaken, Bull Centaurs are considered elites of Chaos Dwarf society. They live in the temples and are held in high regard. They are just like regular chaos dwarfs, but have the lower half bull parts. So, why are Bull Centaur heroes not as good as Chaos Dwarf heroes?
Yes, they have one more attack, but they have a lower WS and a lower LD. Why is that? You would think that if they are the elite of society, they would have better scores in both!
�?oIf they made the Bull Centaur lord better than a regular dwarf lord, why would anyone take a regular Chaos Dwarf lord?�?�
Who cares!?! Aren�?Tt Bull Centaurs close to the head of Chaos Dwarf society? Shouldn�?Tt they be leading the armies? Also, the BC would cost more points. Black orc warlords are just better versions of orc warlords, but people still play with just orc warlords often enough. It isn�?Tt a problem for OnG, so why should it be for CD? I am sure that there would be a lot of people who would still take a regular Chaos Dwarf lord instead, just for the fluff or cheaper points.
Ubertechie:
Groznit,
you make a good point - maybe it is because they are slightly more feral / wild than a normal dwarf - however they are meant to be the warrior elite and could do with a boost as could the unit themselves.
If you look at something like Fleshhounds I think that is a good place to start for BC stats - something like WS5, S4, T4, W2, A2, LD 9 - 4 + armour save - MR1 ? - can take shields or GW and full command - base cost 35 points a model and then take the hero and the lord character from there
Maul:
It would also be nice if they were a special choice and the giant was a rare choice. Someday maybe (dreamy sigh).
Ubertechie:
Maul
I like the interesting tactical dilemma we have in army selection of Bull Centaurs or Earth shakers - both are profoundly different and both add something that really helps our army out. In fact we probably have the most interesting rare section of any army
Ancient History:
Chaos Dwarf Lords work harder.
Bull Centaur Lords do it from the flank.
Groznit Goregut:
Bull Centaur Lords don’t have to do it from the flanks. I bet if you took a tooled up bull centaur BSB (no magic banner) and put him in a unit of 10 bull centaurs w/ war banner, you could charge a fully ranked infantry unit and win. Now, I mean a fully ranked Core infantry unit. I don’t mean elite infantry. You would have a rank, standard, war banner, and BSB to give you a static CR of 4. Add in the fact that you charged and each model gets 2 attacks (3 in the front rank for a total of 6). A champ gets 3 and the hero gets 4. That’s 13 attacks from at least WS 4. With great weapons, that’s at least S6. I’m sure that you will get some more hits and I bet the enemy won’t even be able to strike back often.
TLTG:
I would imagine the “blessings” of Hashut work a lot like the blessings of other chaos gods. That is to say, you might mutate to the favor of your god, but eventually you degrade to a spawn with low leadership and clumsy motion. Bulls aren’t the most graceful things on the planet, after all.
Groznit Goregut:
The chaos power that caused the mutations that turned regular Chaos Dwarfs into a new race (bull centaurs) happened long ago. That type of maddening influence would be long gone from a bull centaur today. That’s why there aren’t any fresh mutations.
Tarrakk Blackhand:
they have one more attack, but they have a lower WS and a lower LD. Why is that?
Maybe the bull centaurs are weaker with WS and have a lower leadership to balance out the fact that they get 8 movement VS 3 movement, 5 toughness instead of 4 toughness, 4 Intellegence VS 3 and they have a unit strength of 2 per model as opposed to unit strength of 1.
Thommy H:
It’s simply because, as non-infantry creatures, they don’t follow the usual progression for characters. And also because Chaos Dwarf Heroes are (now) unique in certain respects (i.e. Ld).
It goes like this:
Heroes have +2WS, +1BS, +1S, +1T, +1W, +2I, +2A and +1Ld over basic troopers.
The missing link for WS between troopers and hero-type characters is an elite unit (Hammerers, Eternal Guard, Greatswords, Chosen, etc.) that have +1 WS over normal troopers. Chaos Dwarfs, notably, don’t have this.
Because Bull Centaurs are already an elite unit, their Heroes don’t follow this progression of characteristic increases. They just get +1 WS and +1A (among some other buffs) which means they end up being a little bit worse than the Chaos Dwarf equivalent.
In other words: Bull Centaurs start better than Chaos Dwarfs, but don’t scale up as much because they aren’t ordinary infantry.
Groznit Goregut:
I do appreciate the answers, but “metagame” answers aren’t a good one in my book. I think Bull Centaurs should be better than Chaos Dwarfs. Maybe everything will get fixed if/when they redo the CD book?
Thommy H:
I wasn’t providing a “good” answer - just the real one. They’re better in some ways, but not all. There is a method to the madness anyway: why would anyone ever pick a Chaos Dwarf Hero if Bull Centaurs were simply better?
Groznit Goregut:
why would anyone ever pick a Chaos Dwarf Hero if Bull Centaurs were simply better?
Thommy H
For the same reason people pick Orc Warlords over Black Orc Warlords. They are cheaper in points and fluff reasons.
Thommy H:
The idea is to make it a valid choice, that’s all. A lot of people think the two Orc character types are redundant (not to mention the Gobbos too…), but that’s kind of the point of Orcs and Goblins, isn’t it? With most other armies, there aren’t usually two Hero choices that fulfil the same basic role, except one is just better than the other. It’s poor design.
Tarrakk Blackhand:
My answer wasn’t “Metagamming”. It’s simply that all armies MUST be ballanced. For the advantages and disadvantages that a normal Warrior gets, a Bull Centaur would get slightly different advantages and disadvantages.
One of the Bull Centaur advantages is his movement. However, because of this advantage, he has to be disadvantaged in some way. GW did this by dropping his Leadership to 9 instead of 10. It’s just what they thought was the best. Anyway, 9 isn’t bad. The bigger creatures like Lammasu’s have a Ld of 8 and the Bull Taurus has a Ld of 6. Both creatures are suppose to be that 1 step up from Bull Centaurs, but they’re not.
Ubertechie:
The bigger creatures like Lammasu's have a Ld of 8 and the Bull Taurus has a Ld of 6. Both creatures are suppose to be that 1 step up from Bull Centaurs, but they're not.
Tarrakk Blackhand
Maybe not one step up but more one step along a certain (devolution?) path - the bull centaurs are more feral and then the taurus is almost entirely an animal and retains little of its dwarven intellect
Swissdictator:
It depends on how you define evolution, etc.
A Great Taurus can fly, can take more damage, deal more damage, and has a nice built in save and immunity to fire. Considering the region they live in (and the likely scarcity of food compared to the Old World) I’d say the Great Taurus certainly has some advantages in survival as the vast distances and treacherous environment and are not as much of a concern for it.
Loki:
I use a Bull Centaur hero in my 2000 point list and he has always served me well (when he is not hacking up his own unit curse those 1’s) if i did not love my Great Taurus so much i would take a Bull Centaur lord but there is just so much more you can do with a huge terror causing flying bull
Ubertechie:
I use a Bull Centaur hero in my 2000 point list and he has always served me well (when he is not hacking up his own unit curse those 1's) if i did not love my Great Taurus so much i would take a Bull Centaur lord but there is just so much more you can do with a huge terror causing flying bull
Loki
Loki
I have said it before and i will say it again - take the sword of might instead - same result - no risk :-)
Groznit Goregut:
OK OK…I accept the fact that the Bull Centaurs must have gone “feral” a bit when they mutated. Still, I don’t see them being at the top of the societal food chain if they really are somewhat feral. Or maybe it’s all inbreeding?
My answer wasn’t “Metagamming”. It’s simply that all armies MUST be ballanced. For the advantages and disadvantages that a normal Warrior gets, a Bull Centaur would get slightly different advantages and disadvantages.
Tarrakk Blackhand
Actualy, Tarrakk, “metagamming” is when you think of the rules system outside the game world. To say that the various army lists have to be balanced for game play is exactly a metagamming answer. It wasn’t meant as a derogatory term, though. I was just hoping for an in-game justification for it.