[Archive] Changes to make DoC more balanced?

Archive [Archive] Wargame News and Discussion
1

Grimstonefire:

A small attempt on my part to make DoC more balanced, both internally and against all other armies.  If anyone has any thoughts on this I would be interested, especially from people who play fairly regularly with or against them.

The rest of this is copied and pasted from warseer

Rather than moan about how broken it is, I thought I would be constructive and try and put together DoC 7.1

Notes:

  •   I am not a daemons player, and I rarely play against daemons. These are pure theoryhammer, to be tested by people who care enough.

  •   Note also that if I have not mentioned something that everyone knows is unbalanced it’s probably because I don’t know about it. The rules and profiles stay the same on all the below unless otherwise stated.



Suggested changes for Daemons of Chaos 7.1

Army Rules: Same (I could have amended this and kept the points increases to a minimum, but I went the other way).

LORD

Skarbrand: 705 pts

Kairos Fateweaver: 650 pts

Kugath: Same

Daemon Prince: Same

Bloodthirster: 500pts

Lord of Change: 475pts

Keeper of Secrets: 500pts

Great Unclean One: Same

HERO

Skulltaker: 165 pts Juggernaut = 60pts. Chariot of Khorne = 120pts

Masque: 130 pts

Epidemius: 145pts

Scribes: 100pts

Herald of Khorne: 115pts Juggernaut = 60pts. Chariot of Khorne = 120pts

Herald of Tzeentch: 135 pts Chariot of Tzeentch = 80pts

Herald of Nurgle: 120 pts

Herald of Slaanesh: 95pts Chariot of Slaanesh = 110pts

Battle standard bearer may choose either a magic banner or a single daemonic upgrade.

CORE

Bloodletters: Gain Hatred (all enemies). 14 pts/model

Horrors: 14 pts/ model (?)

Plaguebearers: Gain Regeneration. 14 pts/ model

Daemonettes: Gain Always Strike first. 14 pts/ model

Furies: 13 pts/ model

SPECIAL

Flesh hounds: 40 pts/ model

Screamers: 33 pts/model

Nurglings: Same

Seekers: Gain Always Strike first. 28 pts/ model

Karanak: 95pts/ model

RARE

Bloodcrushers: 75 pts/ model

Flamers: 45 pts/ model

Beasts of Nurgle: 105 pts/ model

Fiends: 60 pts/ model

Magic items

Great Icon of Despair: Change from -2Ld to makes the unit cause Terror

Obsidian Armour: 60pts (tough for heralds)

Siren Song: 35 points for Keeper of Secrets

I guess I should give some reasoning behind some of the decisions, bear in mind this is mostly all guesswork:

* Things marked with this had a small boost simply because I feel DoC is an elite list, but is too cheap for this.

Lords:

I started with the greater daemons, looking at HoC and taking off the special abilities, adding on any new ones, then trying to work out roughly what the difference would be because of any change in stats.

Special characters I looked at the difference in what they are currently to their equivalent and just added this on to my new value. Obviously this presumed they were correct in the first place.

Heroes:

Skulltaker had a boost because of the skulls for the skull throne rule (which I felt was underpriced), possibly also a small boost* Juggernaut was too cheap, as I added a boost to bloodcrusher *

The chariots seemed WAY too cheap. Considering they have impact hits.

Most of the cost of the Masque was priced as if a slaanesh herald had received magic items to boost stat line from any other book. Possibly a small boost* Scribes could be the same principle, whereas Epidemius I think was just a *.

BSB was mainly because that seems to be a common criticism. It would suck for DoC players, but it would be more in line with the majority of books (who can’t normally take any special upgrades/items with a magic banner).

Core

All units had a * factor, but considering some have a ‘free’ special ability when they have a herald, and are useless without it I threw that in as well.

Special

Mostly * increases. Karanak is too cheap for +2 attacks and his other rules compared to a flesh hound. I was tempted to give him +1 wound and make him a hero.

Nurglings seemed fairly balanced compared to Hoc (considering what they gained and lost)?

Rare

Mostly * increases (obviously the beasts of nurgle could be changed). The flamers were hard to price, as D6 flaming shots could potentially mean 6 shots. So in principle in any other army that could be the cost of 6 missile troops (or one guy armed with 6 S4 18" missile weapons). But then you have to factor in the randomness of the roll. +10 points may be too little?

Summary of Comments from other people

Make beasts of nurgle cheaper, not more expensive, but no idea how much yet.

2

snowblizz:

Deamon Prince needs to be tweaked. He sucks utter ****.

A unit that pays 35 points to get a Mark of Nurgle but doesn’t gain anything except access to items that costs even more points isn’t accurately priced.

The BSB thingy is frankly stupid. Make all Demonic gifts magic items and A LOT of the problems disappear. No need to overcost them as you can only take one item.

Increasing deamon infantry base price might not be a good idea. While they do get better most benefits are only for the fighting rank. A problem 7th edition has been trying to fix with all other elite choices in armies (ie by giving them massive amounts of special rules). I see it a bit like VC in 6th (but the reverse) where infantry needs to be encourage by a discoutn taken out on the specials/rares instead.

Increasing the price of chariots is silly. They are not used by anyone. The Herald becomes an easy and expensive target you can’t shield. And secondly is needed in many units to make them viable (which admittedly you are changing).

I think the problems of Deamon armies are more fundamental and the whole book needs to be redone. You can take the edge of some of the nastiest stuff with some points increases but that’s all. There’s just so many situations where the aplyer is “forced” take certain units.



First of all there’s much too much “focus” in the units. E.g. making only heralds of Tzeentch be decent wizards encourages focusing there. The need to put Heralds into infantry units complicated the matter but then they conveniently placed an out. Horrors. Fill the core requirement AND get dispel dice. Basically a lot of the army’s inner workings are entirely out of whack. You can’t take a medium Nurgle or Slaanesh magic phase, and definitely not if you want some defence as well.

The changes you suggest would looking quickly encourage essentially the same way of play. It would allow Nurgle blocks to be really annoying while freeing up heralds to go into the units they are most effective in. Seekers and especially Flesh hounds. Alternatively taking 3-4 Tzeentch heralds.

3

Baggronor:

One sentence would go a long way to balancing them: ‘Daemonic ward saves are negated by magic attacks’. This would help tremendously, while also staying in line with Forest Spirits.

I think the problems of Deamon armies are more fundamental and the whole book needs to be redone. You can take the edge of some of the nastiest stuff with some points increases but that’s all. There’s just so many situations where the aplyer is “forced” take certain units.
I don’t think the stats themselves are a problem at all, rather its the special abilities and gift combos, coupled with the Instability rules (beating them in combat by 2-3 or even 4-5 makes little impression, whereas against any other army that is a decisive margin).

For example Siren Song should be 0-1, and/or should not affect Immune to Psych units, in the same way as the Master Rune of Challenge. Its simply unfair for someone’s elites to be forced into a stupid charge against a monster with ASF and -4 save mod. When people take 2-3 Songs, they’re basically moving their opponent’s army for them.
Most of the cost of the Masque was priced as if a slaanesh herald had received magic items to boost stat line from any other book. Possibly a small boost*
You could double the Masque’s cost and she would still be worth it.

4

Uzkul Werit:

With the Locus abilties, I think the Heralds should still be the ones to pass it on. It adds a nice dynamic and balances the foot troops, making them useless once the Herald is dead.

Two words would solve Daemons: Daemonic Animosity.

5

cornixt:

If you every want to rebalance an official army, then the simpler the better. Repricing every unit is hopelessly complicated (unless you add a consistant amount to all infantry units or similar), you need to do just enough to prevent the overpowered combos. Better still, adding a house rule across the board like Daemonic Animosity as Uzkul Werit suggests. I have no experience at all with DoC so I can’t help.

6

Grimstonefire:

@snowblizz

I have to agree on the daemon prince thing.  They gain no special rules by taking a ‘mark’, so that 35 is pointless.  It should be free?  Should they cause Terror as well?

Here is attempt #2, taking in feedback from other places as well:

Suggested changes for Daemons of Chaos 7.1

Army Rules:

Daemonic ward saves are negated by magic attacks.

LORD

Skarbrand: 705 pts

Kairos Fateweaver: 650 pts

Kugath: Same

Bloodthirster: 500pts

Lord of Change: 475pts

Keeper of Secrets: 500pts

Great Unclean One: Same

Daemon Prince:  May take dedication to one god for free (and only one god).

HERO

Skulltaker: 165 pts Juggernaut = 60pts. Chariot of Khorne = 85pts

Masque: 130 pts

Epidemius: 145pts

Scribes: 100pts

Herald of Khorne: 115pts Juggernaut = 60pts. Chariot of Khorne = 85pts

Herald of Tzeentch: 135 pts Chariot of Tzeentch = 70pts

Herald of Nurgle: 120 pts  Level 2 Wizard:  35pts

Herald of Slaanesh: 95pts Chariot of Slaanesh = 85pts  Level 2 Wizard:  35pts

Battle standard bearer may choose up to 50 points from the Daemonic Gifts and Daemonic Items lists.  If a daemonic Item is taken a Daemonic Icon cannot also be taken.

CORE

Bloodletters: Gain Hatred (all enemies). 14 pts/model

Horrors: 14 pts/ model. 4+ Ward Save.  In the event of a misfire Player may elect to lose either D6+1 Horrors as casualties, or 1 power dice (they must state before rolling)

Plaguebearers: Gain Regeneration. 14 pts/ model

Daemonettes: Gain Always Strike first. 14 pts/ model

Furies: 13 pts/ model

SPECIAL

Flesh hounds: 40 pts/ model

Screamers: 33 pts/model

Nurglings: Same

Seekers: 26 pts/ model

Karanak: 95pts/ model

RARE

Bloodcrushers: 75 pts/ model

Flamers: 40 pts/ model

Beasts of Nurgle: 95 pts/ model

Fiends: 60 pts/ model

Magic items are now split like this.  Daemonic Gifts are not magic items, but Daemonic Items are.  No Daemonic Item can be duplicated in the army, but daemonic gifts can.  (The reason they are split this way is that it makes no sense that a magical weapon that would be a magical item in any other list is treated the same way as physical mutations).

Daemonic Gifts:

Spirit Swallower

Awesome Strength

Two Heads

Tzeentch�?Ts Will

Dark Insanity

Many Armed Monstrosity

Nurgling Infestation

Spell Destroyer

Temptator

Trappings of Nurgle

Power vortex

Allure of Slaanesh

Dark Magister

Enrapturing Gaze

Flames of Tzeentch

Immortal Fury

Iridescent Corona

Master of Sorcery

Noxious Vapours

Nurgle�?Ts Rot

Pesltilent Mucus

Sporific Musk

Soul Hunger

Spell Breaker

Streams of Bile

Unnatural Swiftness

Winged Horror

Slime Trail

Daemonic Items:

Balesword

Etherblade

Obsidian Armour       60pts (tough for heralds)

Staff of Change

Staff of Nurgle

Axe of Khorne

Daemonic Robes

Firestorm Blade

Horn of Sirens (Renamed)

Armour of Khorne

Collar of Khorne

Torment Blade

Great Icon of Despair: Change from -2Ld to makes the unit cause Terror

@Uzkul

Imo animosity works on low cost troops.  Depending on how harsh it is it could be quite bad for a mixed daemons army, as compared to O&G there would not be a whole lot of things to counter it like black orcs).  It would also not help solve the powerful elements of specific units without also doing something else like points increases I think.

7

Grimstonefire:

Just like that another version appears!

You know there is nothing as likely to get you burned from flaming attacks on forums as much as trying to balance DoC…  The DoC players seem to dislike any changes that make them ‘weaker’, their opponents seem to disagree about what is worst but that it’s just all broken.  Everyone seems to have a different way to improve it, so even finding common concerns is hard. :~

Admittedly I did have the nerve to go on Daemonic Legion and do a long thread about how their army is broken…  Normally people seem to do it from a nice safe distance. :slight_smile:

Anyhow, my latest attempt taking into account feedback from many places.  So if it seems like I’ve ignored something above it’s because I’m trying to go with the majority (plus some of my own ideas).

8

Uzkul Werit:

I can’t imagine you’d get many replys, Grim. The Legion is dead in terms of traffic.