that's what happens when the suits get in control.
Yup, same situation as the graphics company I do freelance for: the MD knows nothing about art or design, and doesn't want to, he's there because he is a soulless money-making machine.
The burden of proof is with the Chaos Dwarfs because they failed before - in fact, they failed twice, because they were still available on the online store when Ravening Hordes came out, and obviously didn't sell enough for GW to decide it was worth continuing to produce them.
True, although I would still maintain they only failed because GW did a half-arsed job with the list in the first place.
How did Ogre Kingdoms players demonstrate that they would be a viable market? Or Tau? Or even Tomb Kings?
Tau were a matter of time, the influx of manga, particularly series like Appleseed and Gundam, meant they were guaranteed some kind of a fanbase amongst the geek masses, and it was at a time when GW was expanding into the far east too. Tomb Kings are essentially the bits that were left over after they split the Vampires off from the old Undead book, and thus had a sort of following already. Ogre Kingdoms are a complete mystery, possibly the least logical move ever made by GW (and thats saying something). Apparently it was to test the figure design-by-computer method or some such. They still seem like the worst idea ever to me.
I feel indifferent about the status of the CDs but at least their rules are more up to date than the rules for Dark Eldar in 40k which is the oldest army between the two systems at the moment. Hopefully this year turns out to be the year of forgotten armies as they have been redoing the more niche armies as of late with the dark eldar, beastmen and tomb kings finally getting an update from the looks of it.
Plus they may be holding off on updating them till 8th comes out next summer, who knows?
OK were part of GWs “something different” they like to do in the middle and end of a release schedule. TK were the middle army, and they were essentially completely new, although not much different except in terms of magic. OK fit into where they had the choice between CDs of OK. OK had the chance of being more interesting (failure of imagination more than anything) and the cross-army sales - anyone can have Ogre units in their army except Brets, so stood more chance of selling more.
They failed for pretty much the same reason as CDs did originally - a few people bought the models for their existing army but never got around to fleshing them out into a full army, like CDs in O&G armies. Plus it had a lot of imagery that people couldn’t relate to because it was so unfamiliar and new to them.
I dont know Tomb Kings were out of left field IMHO. I wonder how much of it was because of the Mummy movies with Brendan Frasier. Look what they did with the zombie Pirates, any guess on what movie inspired that. Then there is the whole LOTR ring thing.
In short they try to ride the waves of popularity for certain things happen in the mainstream at that time.
Tomb Kings already existed as part of the Undead army. They appeared in White Dwarf as a separate army list around the same time the Vampire Counts book was released for 5th Edition.
Many of you posted spirited defenses of GW’s rationale for not releasing a Chaos Dwarfs list. But the issue is consumer contentment with that. I for one am not happy about the lack of a revision and will become burnt in time. There is alot of blind and sometimes obsessive GW fandom. However, the reality exists if GW continue to be blind to consumer desirethey will alienate gamer, who will then move on to other game systems.
The reported rumors of the “top secret” fantasy army and the forgeworld rumors are what got me dissappointed. The rumors whether true or false got my hopes up. They also reminded me of GW’s blatant disregard of one of my favortie armies. At one point it was reported that Jervis said that Chaos dwarfs were in line for redo at a gamesday last year. I honestly had zero excitement about many the lizardman release last year and almost completely disinterestedin most of next years releases. I don’t think Beasts or Tomb Kings are more popular than Chaos dwarfs could be. In my opinion, many of these release will not translate into sales. I would just really like to play as and against chaos dwarves at a tourney and that is not a viable option in most cases.
However, the reality exists if GW continue to be blind to consumer desirethey will alienate gamer
I'm guessing the singular "gamer" is a typo there, but it's appropriate nonetheless. Your discontent is not the same thing as everybody else's discontent. There are plenty of Warhammer players who don't give a damn about Chaos Dwarfs. As I said, market forces do not respond to ultimatums. If you want to see Chaos Dwarfs redone, the only way to help that happen is to ensure that GW can see a visible potential market. Walking away is counter-productive.
As much as I love Chaos Dwarfs, and they are my favorite army… I love the game and hobby more. I would love it if they updated them, and I think they would do AT LEAST as well as Beastmen, Tomb Kings, and Brets… and perhaps slightly better.
If Chaos Dwarfs are never updated, I have an army or two I would fall on… one for fluff and the other for appearance reasons.
I think some folks are to concerned with numbers, and not with potential. Which isn’t just true in this hobby… I think society has gotten so obsessed with zero risk/trends/etc that innovation is dying. Which is why I don’t think they realize (relatively for GW) thought out rules, and revamp in style would result in sales… certainly enough to be profitably e and not a loss.
Who knows, maybe when the economy picks up… d*** people not taking risks… grrr…
Tomb Kings already existed as part of the Undead army. They appeared in White Dwarf as a separate army list around the same time the Vampire Counts book was released for 5th Edition.
Thommy H
Fair enough as I do not remember the exact timing for the TK, but the point of Zombies and LOTR still stands.
The Mummy was released at about the same time as the 5th ed VC book. I was travelling at the time so I have no idea how closely they coincide, but it could have been coincidence anyway. The TK list in WD was pretty much just skeletons with chariots and catapults, the 6th edition book gave them so much more, including a full range of models. So essentially new, if not vaguely conceptually.
How did Ogre Kingdoms players demonstrate that they would be a viable market? Or Tau? Or even Tomb Kings?
The market doesn't come first, GW creates markets based on their experiences of what they think will sell.
Chaos Dwarfs will be no different.
Grimstonefire
Only issue with that is they have already tried and to some degree failed with CD's. They to my mind would be far more likely to pull a Dark Eldar or a Tau of of the closet to begin a new market than try and dig up an old one.
Not that i agree at all with it, but thats what they are likely to do.
On the other hand, GW have already done a lot of conceptual work for the Chaos Dwarfs. Some of it is old fluff, some is new stuff.
So they would be reintroducing an old race rather than creating something completely new that they wouldn’t know would sell.
Evil dwarfs is a guaranteed money maker imo, and it’s not too far a leap into a completely unknown race/ army.
Imo Chaos Dwarfs as a concept is perfectly fine, their application of it last time was befitting the age they were in, but should not be seen as a complete failure.
Hey guys. Interesting thread. I find myself agreeing with many of the points being made… and basically everything Thommy has said…
As many have said the thing you really cant get away from is that GW is a business that is accountable to shareholders and run by accountants. The unfortunate consequences from a creative point of view is that the decisions on ‘what armies get done when’ is financial. And i am sure this frustrates the creative guys at GW as much as it does us!!!
But take a step back and ask yourself if it really matters?
Your answer will depend on what your expectations are from your hobby.
Sure it would be nice if GW were to produce a line of CD but aside from rumours of a forgeworld project there does not seem to be anything out there for us. But that wont stop us from playing CD! We have an excellent Indy written Dwarfs of Chaos book (many thanks and congrats to all involved btw!!) which we dont have to shell out £15 (or equivalent!!) for. This list is Indy tournament legal (if thats your thing) and the staff of my local GW have absolutely no problems with me using the list in store.
We also have the opportunity to create truly unique armies! Converting an army i admit is a big task (one that i am just embarking on myself!) but i look upon it as another part of the hobby to be enjoyed.
So dont let GW get you down! Remember its YOUR hobby and YOU decide what you get out of it… not GW. Dont get fixated on everything having to be ‘official’.
Either that or go and play Space Marines… then you are guaranteed support…
Sure i could sit here and comment that Dark Eldar badly need a redo & Ogre Kingdoms is terrible. Or perhaps scream that i want plastic Sisters of Battle figures. Or even ask GW why High Elves get nice plastic heros and chariots and dragons and bolt throwers when Dark Elves have to put up with metal nonsense? Whoops getting carried away now… And i didnt even say Squats…
Best solution is to have zero expectations. Then one day you might be pleasantly surprised!
I don't know about the rest of you guys but I am getting burnt on the empty promises GW contunues to make regarding chaos dwarves being redone. Earlier this year we had rumors of an army release which changed to a forgeworld fantasy release but we are still in limbo about new chaos dwarfs.
Another terrible thing which happened this year was ravening hordes being banned from most tournament settings and in effect nix chaos dwarf armies from play. My point in this rant is that I'm getting burnt will GW promises to redo chaos dwarfs that never materialize. To date I have personally waited 5 yrs for a chaos dwarf update and I don't want to wait another 5 before a release.
speedygogo
Totally in accordance with you speedygogo, GW say that Chaos Dwarfs returns, but don't they say a date concrete, my conclusion is that GW only give excuses year after year for that we get tired of wait for. :mad
I think GW should package the ‘Chaos Dwarf promise’ and sell them. We could buy boxes with a cool bit of art on the front, and inside there is a note saying ‘we will do chaos dwarfs eventually’!
The problem is that gamesworkshop are largely and strongly a good bussines. They make products driven upon what people buy. The problem is that Chaos dwarves were not one of the big four ranges that sell well, Being Chaos, Chaos space marrines and the 2 ranges they are trying to push at that time via white dwarf. I remember when Jervis Jonson told everyone “why not feild a entire army of khorne bezerkers” and not just one but 7 entire armies of purke khorneate bezerkers turned up on the gaming tables. no suprise when lets face it 18 khorne bezerkers came in a box for £18 if i remmeber right.
With lord of the rings games franchies also being in the hands of gamesworkshop (which make great models but I think perhaps another manufactorer should have gotten the rights) gamesworkshop will push in those directions with several hundred different chappters of millions of seperate chapter design and trying to see the difference between the endless hordes of space maries that fly of the shelves to all new players and old alike,
The various other lord of the rings products that fly off the shelf and what ever the new vouge warhammer 40k and warhammer army is then chaos dwarves will be a footnote in gamesworkshop’s lits of side projects and maybe wont even get done till all my teeth fall out with my hair and I have even more grey in my beard.
The simple fact that our models wont lay in a box somewhere what happens is our own converted or otherwise armies get noticed and the armies gather more kudos people will start asking games workshop where are those cool models that my freind has at our gamesclub and why cant I buy them in my local hobycentre willl get the ball rolling better than whining and complaining that our favorite army is no longer supported and why why why should have could have never did. What will get better is when the stores then the development teams start noticing that chaos dwarves are becomming popular and not just a footnote in the history of gamesworkshop that will never get supported if we whine on a forum but we push the envelope and eventualy that envelope will get pushed up further up the escheleons of gamesworkshop to management where the real pushes come from.
So do we rant on the forum about it for sure but the best thing to do si show what we have and be as enthusiastic about what we have made ourselves and because of the help of many of the people here who have inspired me me and forget of gamesworkshop they may make the models but we make our hoby experiance and tornaments aside we play our games wiht our freinds we make our own experiance and a bag full of over priced gamesworkshop products dont play the game of warhammer we like.
If this site has taught us anything it’s that GW is more of a hinderance then a help to the cause of chaos dwarfs. Seriously we are succeding in spite of them not because of them.
I always find posts like this a little disheartening. there are a ton of Talented people on this forum… And All of you are extremely passionate about Chaos dwarfs in one form or another… and it is Very sad to see such a characterful army lay stagnant…
But I find myself agreeing with what Thommy H has said for the most part…
And I see alot of Words like “promises” being tossed around And I really dont see that as the truth of the matter… As far as i know No One has Promised anything Yet… Just alot of people conveying interest in seeing something done with Chaos Dwarfs in the future…
And I would hate to see Us build our hopes up around rumors of what Forge World may do… We know they are Hiring right now((artists and sculptors go apply))… and It has been mentioned chaos dwarfs will be seen among the new fantasy line… But I would tend to think with forge world’s track record we will see more in the lines of supplement models to be used acrossed a broad range of armies rather then any One complete army…
Will we will see forge world Chaos Dwarfs? Yes! But I find it more likely we will see them as more Imperial Armour ((Dogs of war))style supplement units rather then a stand alone army…
I for One love that fact that Games workshop hasn’t touched this model range… It Gives me a chance to take a look in now and again and see what a group really creative people can do… You write your own rules and fluff. you’ve created your Own army Book! You convert or scratch build every character in your entire army on a daily basis…
For that reason I for One always find it Inspirational to drop by…
