I don’t know about the rest of you guys but I am getting burnt on the empty promises GW contunues to make regarding chaos dwarves being redone. Earlier this year we had rumors of an army release which changed to a forgeworld fantasy release but we are still in limbo about new chaos dwarfs.
Another terrible thing which happened this year was ravening hordes being banned from most tournament settings and in effect nix chaos dwarf armies from play. My point in this rant is that I’m getting burnt will GW promises to redo chaos dwarfs that never materialize. To date I have personally waited 5 yrs for a chaos dwarf update and I don’t want to wait another 5 before a release.
For myself this aspect isn’t very important/tragic!
I am and never was a “real” player - I’m more a collector (and reasonable) painter!
Since I’m member of CDO I got so much new input to convert my own minis and I found hints and links to “new” companys and their miniature ranges!
Certainly I understand the dilemma of the more “gaming” part of the CDO members.
IMO GW makes an impolite politic against their own customers!
I cannot understand why they don’t let the RH status quo persist or make a short update in the WD for CDs!?!?!
With such a sort “trick” they will please their old customers and have any possibility to release minis one by one if they want without the “problem” to release a whole army line. I’m aware this could be a possible financial desaster for them!
But it’s always a problem when a company got a monopol then they became arrogant and self-pleased! :mad
Unlike recent years forge world have said that chaos dwarfs are a high priority. Take this to mean that they will be releasing some asap. AFAIK forge world actually deliver on what they hint about.
They do intend to release rules for a lot (if not all) of the remaining armies in time (cathay, nippon etc), so it would make sense to release some rules to use for the CD.
I think the problem was that the news broke about a year earlier than GW would have wanted. If we had not known about any rumours then we would not be wondering where the models are now.
I’m amazed at the wishful thinking that goes on in these threads sometimes. Forge World have said they’re planning to do them, not that they’re going to be out, like, next week. GW said they’d like to do them “one day”, not that they’re next in line for a book.
Things can always change. Until the money and resources have been committed, it’s all pipe dreams and it’s no good getting annoyed about perceived broken promises. GW doesn’t owe any Chaos Dwarf player anything - we chose to play an obscure army and we didn’t support them enough when they had models in production and legal rules. Their only commitment is to making money, and Chaos Dwarfs are not a proven commodity at this stage, so if you want them to come back then giving up is very much not the answer to your woes. Market forces do not respond to ultimatums.
I don't know about the rest of you guys but I am getting burnt on the empty promises GW contunues to make regarding chaos dwarves being redone. Earlier this year we had rumors of an army release which changed to a forgeworld fantasy release but we are still in limbo about new chaos dwarfs.
I don't remember any real rumours of an army release, just forgeworld rumours.
Another terrible thing which happened this year was ravening hordes being banned from most tournament settings and in effect nix chaos dwarf armies from play.
Use the Dwarf army list at tournies if you have to. Downside is no greenskins/BCs, but on the plus side its more CD troop types to proxy. And more war machines too.
To date I have personally waited 5 yrs for a chaos dwarf update and I don't want to wait another 5 before a release.
A mere 5 years, you're still a beardling :) I know what you mean though, its getting pretty silly now. Particularly annoying when certain armies have had 3, even 4 books in the same period, and yes, I know its because the various types of Space Nazis and Tyranids sell better than interesting armies, but seriously how hard would it have been to do a WD temporary rules set at some point in the last 10 years just to keep the army legal?
Seriously: Chaos Dwarfs got discontinued because they didn’t sell well enough. Now, we can debate why that was to the end of days (“no real army book”, “big hats”, “reliance on Orcs and Goblins”, etc. etc.etc.) and maybe it was GW’s fault ultimately, but if they’d sold as well as any other army we wouldn’t be having this conversation. They weren’t allowed to disappear on a whim. And here’s the thing: the current popularity of Chaos Dwarfs isn’t indicative of some kind of hidden fanbase that’s been waiting for years to get their army back because, bottom line, it’s because they’re so niche that most of us are so passionate about them. I have a bunch of armies for several games, but the one that has received the most attention over the years is the one that GW doesn’t even support! That’s not some crazy coincidence.
I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again: GW owes us nothing.
Yes, GW can do whatever they want with their products.
But probably being a dreamer beyond any correction, sometimes I think this is an hobby made for and BY people that love the hobby.
Making miniatures and games is not like making washmachines and sewer tubing, it is something that, hopefully, includes fun and passion, not just making money.
Said this I can understand they fully support Space-Nazis (lol, Baggronor, slaves are coming ) or Chaos, they are really money makers for the company but I do not understand why they no try to support some niches of the hobby. Ravening Hordes was a great idea to let people play their own favourite armies during the switch between two different set of rules. Why not reply the idea with a special WD supplement? Just to keep update lost Warhammer and 40K armies?
I cannot believe this will use a lot of the company resources and dramatically cut down sales of other armies…
After all we are still buying GW products to convert our Chaos Dwarf armies and most of us collect other armies.
At least for me, one of the greatest attraction is the amazing world created by GW, its diversity, even Chaos/Dark Elf/Vampires players love to play against a different army than the 100th version of Chaos/Dark Elf/Vampire army.
I can understand the move to delete Ravening Hordes if you are going to release a sobstitute, like when they deleted the Albion Campaign special items, or armies like Cult of Slaneesh because they were going to release the new 7th edition armies and they would be redunant. But why deliberately kill Chaos Dwarfs and Dogs of War if you are not going to release new rules?
Really cannot understand…
OK, finished the sunday morning grudges and back to my furnace for an hard day working for Hashut… :hashut
Seriously: Chaos Dwarfs got discontinued because they didn't sell well enough. Now, we can debate why that was to the end of days ("no real army book", "big hats", "reliance on Orcs and Goblins", etc. etc.etc.) and maybe it was GW's fault ultimately, but if they'd sold as well as any other army we wouldn't be having this conversation. They weren't allowed to disappear on a whim.
Thommy H
As you said, we will never know. It may have been because they didn't sell 'enough', but that is a subjective term. A lot of the things GW have done have not made economic sense.
And here's the thing: the current popularity of Chaos Dwarfs isn't indicative of some kind of hidden fanbase that's been waiting for years to get their army back because, bottom line, it's because they're so niche that most of us are so passionate about them.
I have a vague memory of having typed this numerous times in the past; the current level of support for Chaos Dwarfs (including the 'Indy effect') is not what GW would be basing their sales forecasts on. Imo they would treat them as a new army, but one that may also appeal to some older players because of nostalgia.
So the current market size of people who play/ collect CD is meaningless, they would treat us all the same as new customers.
GW may not owe us anything, but when they continually insist they will do them eventually that should happen one day. ;) That is what builds expectation imo, not so much random rumours.
It's all irrelevant really, as I am feeling optimistic about next year.
It's people who only like CD because they are an obscure/niche army that will be disappointed eventually.
but I do not understand why they no try to support some niches of the hobby
Because everything costs money. And if doesn't make money back, then they shouldn't be doing it. Even writing some throwaway White Dwarf list takes time and resources away from doing something that has a guaranteed return. Even putting out a conversion pack that's only sold on the website takes warehouse space and packing costs and bandwidth and, again, time that could be used for more Space Marines that will definitely sell. As a publicly traded company, GW has a duty to its shareholders to make investments wisely. They can't do anything unless the cost is justified. More Space Marines always sell. Resurrecting niche armies from over a decade ago that didn't make any money when they were in stores is a risk. That's why Forge World are probably going to be handling it - they have more leeway to take these risks than GW itself.
It's sad in many ways, but it's the truth. And, also, it gives us hope, because all we need to do is to demonstrate that a market exists for this army. Effects are already being felt (like the rumours of Forge World taking up the cause), but the market has to come first, you see. GW won't release a thing if they don't think it will sell.
Apples and oranges. The burden of proof is with the Chaos Dwarfs because they failed before - in fact, they failed twice, because they were still available on the online store when Ravening Hordes came out, and obviously didn’t sell enough for GW to decide it was worth continuing to produce them.
With genuine new armies, GW would look at the market for the system as a whole. So Ogre Kingdoms would have been greenlit on the basis that the Warhammer player base would support another army, and they chose Ogre Kingdoms to be that army from a number of different choices, I’d imagine (of which Chaos Dwarfs could have been one - and weren’t chosen). Certainly with the Tau there was a selection of possible new 40K armies, and they picked the one that would sell best based on whatever market research. So, for Chaos Dwarfs to return, the market would have to be able to support a new Warhammer army, and that army would have to be one that had failed in the past. Quite a task.
But, really, what am I telling anyone that changes anything? My advice is always the same: let’s keep doing what we’re doing. If, for some reason, the resurrection of the Chaos Dwarfs doesn’t depend on market forces, then that means that any attempt to drum up support is ultimately futile. GW will do what they want to do, and nothing we say or do can make any difference at all. At least my theory places the fate of Chaos Dwarfs in our hands. It may sound like pessimism, but actually this is the most optimistic outlook possible - economics says Chaos Dwarfs can come back.
Or you can be content to leave it to chance and everything we do is just a way to kill time until GW takes enough pity on us.
If, for some reason, the resurrection of the Chaos Dwarfs doesn't depend on market forces, then that means that any attempt to drum up support is ultimately futile. GW will do what they want to do, and nothing we say or do can make any difference at all.
Thommy H
That actually sums up my outlook pretty well! Though I believe the rumours about Hastings FW thread on warseer, so I guess I'm somewhere in the middle between it not depending on current sales, and them actually looking at interest overall (regardless if those people currently buy models for them or not).
As a point of interest I believe ravening hordes came out the same month as Empire, but looking through the WD the Chaos Dwarfs didn't make the commentry section on the warhammer armies, and obviously it didn't make the cut into a Warhammer Armies book on the back of the Empire one.
So technically I don't think they did fail twice, as they were not supported officially the same as other books from the same month the RH list came out. They could have failed as an unsupported army I'll grant you that, but that would have to be judged differenly imo.
The main issue imo is that GW never really supported them to the same level as the other armies, and when the dividing lines came for them only supporting the Warhammer Armies series it meant all or nothing. In our case nothing.
I freely admit that when GW finally get round to releasing them I will find it interesting reading their review of a new book article, seeing how they refer to their support for them over the past decades. :~
Tommy H what you say is correct, I’m not saying you’re wrong. As a matter of fact I was not talking about conversion sets or new miniatures without a full support, THAT would be an economically nonsense even tought it would be nice for us. Said this I do not really think a WD supplement would take so much time and efforts. It would be just an upgrade of current Ravening Hordes. It would be economically a nice move,it would actually make sense to buy a White Dwarf in the internet era. IMO it was overpriced but useful without broad band (10 years ago), now it is a non sense. I do not really find a reason to buy a copy.
to everybody else from what you say sometimes it sounds like everything GW makes is to make money out of it. I could be naive but I still think that their business implies passion and love for the hobby. A small efforts to promote the non-economical part of the hobby would be nice.
I still think if they just want to make money they’d better choose another field of activity that making miniatures.
again Tommy H What you say is true, up to now Chaos Dwarfs rely on us. It’s an hobby, we can keep them alive even if GW quit the entire game. As long as people have fun
to everybody else from what you say sometimes it sounds like everything GW makes is to make money out of it. I could be naive but I still think that their business implies passion and love for the hobby. A small efforts to promote the non-economical part of the hobby would be nice.
Bassman
Nope once they went corporate it became just another company; that's what happens when the suits get in control. When it was owned and run solely by the people that were gamers it was a different story.
GW= making money now. Perhaps in the late 80's early 90's it was still about the passion and love of the game.
How was this year different from any other year regarding tournaments? CDs have not been allowed in various tournaments since 7th edition came along (banned is a strong word, but this is more of a passive action). Tournaments aren’t the enitre hobby though.
) or Chaos, they are really money makers for the company but I do not understand why they no try to support some niches of the hobby. Ravening Hordes was a great idea to let people play their own favourite armies during the switch between two different set of rules. Why not reply the idea with a special WD supplement? Just to keep update lost Warhammer and 40K armies?