Glimpse the Void:
My question is, have you guys had experiences in which you found you brought to much artillery and it made it difficult for your opponent to have fun? I play these games casually, and don’t necessary worry about winning and loosing, so long as fun is had on both sides. This being said, between the annihilators and other template weapons, we can throw in a crazy amount of fire support. This is one of the aspects I find most attractive about the army.
I am just beginning to tinker with building army list, and I ask you guys with experience what you guys think about this. How big of a consideration is this? Does it matter at all? Did you guys find that there was a line that your opponents consider cheesy for you to cross with your artillery?
I just wanted to get some opinions about this while I’m still in the planning stage, as opposed to after I have bought and converted models.
Thanks for your input.
Khaosbeardling:
I’ll weigh in and say that you should be somewhat careful. The way I see it is that it’s better to win a battle by not being a huge cheese, like bringing too much artillery or doing full khornate. I think that you shouldn’t try and be heavy on any one thing yet that can be hard for CD generals to do.
That all being said there is only so much we can do with the list(s) we have available and that alone should make most people see that you really aren’t trying to bring the cheese.
that guy:
well I cant speak for chaos dwarves but my buddy plays vanilla dwarves and I have been on the recieving end of some endless artillery that just ruined my day.I think it more depends on whats on the other end of that artillery.I attempted putting together a small wood elf force when I first started playing and it was no fun getting all my units obliterated by cannons and such before I got close enough to watch my piddly little arrows bounce off of dwarven armor.I tried to keep a good attitude about it but in all honestly it just wasnt fun.But later on after I decided I didnt like the woodies and had assembled a respectable Skaven force the endless rain of artillery was much less infuriating because I had the bodies to soak up the shooting and had some nasty tricks up my own sleeves to return the hurt.
That being said I havent been playing for very long and in that time I’ve struggled to play very many games, and woodies might stand much more of a chance under such circumstances if I had had a better grasp of the rules at the time.And the endless laughing that came from my later experiences with the Skaven (from both sides of the table) was after the addition of the Hellpit Abomination and the Doom Rocket.
Da Crusha:
I think there is a fine line. if you don’t bring enough war machines you may not be able to deal with a certain type of creature in close combat. if you bring too many your opponent won’t like that his big bad bloodthirster didn’t get a chance to fight. I would just tell them that cd’s dont have a lot of ways to deal with big nasty things except to make sure we kill them from afar. I almost always bring 2 earthshakers, 2 bolt throwers and a deathrocket to a game in 2500 pts. it may seem powerful but Id rather have it and not need it then need it and not have it. actually it might be quite modest compared to the max we could bring at this point level 2 earthshakers, 3 deathrockets and 6 bolt throwers.
Bassman:
I do actually play only the Ravenin Hordes list (and I’m really happy in 8th edition). I usually field 2 heartshekrs and 3 bolt throwers. I never actually liked death rockets and I find them almost useless in 8th edition (this my personal opinion).
5 warmachines it’s not too much, maybe I could even add 1 more bolt thrower…
Think about it:
enemy armies have troops with frenzy, KILLING BLOW (damn it!), fanatics, ASF and even more goodies we do not have.
They have missile units much better than ours. Dragons, Bloodthirsters, overpowered monsters like Hellpit abominations and hydras.
Sometimes their magic is better than ours… even tough our magicians are pretty convenient and even more resilient than others… our enemies deserve to be shoot to hell!!! 
Last but not least: we are twisted dwarfs, we love big guns and the smell of gunpowder! Why do the heck we shall leave home without our nice toys? we are not fhilty elves… 
Glimpse the Void:
I do actually play only the Ravenin Hordes list (and I'm really happy in 8th edition). I usually field 2 heartshekrs and 3 bolt throwers. I never actually liked death rockets and I find them almost useless in 8th edition (this my personal opinion).
5 warmachines it's not too much, maybe I could even add 1 more bolt thrower.....
Think about it:
enemy armies have troops with frenzy, KILLING BLOW (damn it!), fanatics, ASF and even more goodies we do not have.
They have missile units much better than ours. Dragons, Bloodthirsters, overpowered monsters like Hellpit abominations and hydras.
Sometimes their magic is better than ours... even tough our magicians are pretty convenient and even more resilient than others..... our enemies deserve to be shoot to hell!!!! :D
Last but not least: we are twisted dwarfs, we love big guns and the smell of gunpowder! Why do the heck we shall leave home without our nice toys? :D we are not fhilty elves...... :P
Bassman
I like the way you think sir.
Tarrakk Blackhand:
Ok…define “Cheese”, please.
I have played my CD’s against High Elves…High Elves that get “Always Strikes First”, Inititive 998, (Well not really…more like 5 - 3 more than our best Lord Choice) and “Killing Blow”. They’re basically a punching bag in a Challenge round.
I’ve had opponients call “Cheese” on me when I played against them with an army of CD Warriors with hand weapons and shields, Hobgoblins (Without Bolt Throwers) and maybe one Level 1 or 2 sorcerer.
I don’t think our opponients realize that the CD’s limited movement is balanced out by their fire power. Players i know litterally “Freak Out” when I pull a unit of 15 Blunderbuss out of my model tray and drop them on the field, “Cheese!” is being called out everywhere…and then when the BB’s fire and the enemy’s armor deflects the blow and only 1 guy out of their unit of 20+ dies, then it’s not so “Cheesy” after all.
Actually, I only have 1 Death Rocket and 1 Earth Shaker. I also have 2 HG Bolt Throwers. Usually, I can clear a good number of enemies using those weapons, but the main strength is with my sorcerers and Blunderbusses.
Jumbster:
I think it depends on your personal style of gaming. The war machines are the only real reason to the others armys fear CD and VD. Without it the things gona be very hard to handle for a CD army. We dont have asf, frenzy, realy heavy magic or decent movimentation.
So i think show no mercy and blast then with powder and flying heavy metal!!
nitroglysarine:
Stand and deliver!!!
Yeah there is a limit, just if you go to shooty, then you are likely to eventually be overrun.
cornixt:
Going too much in any theme is going to make it boring for the opponent. If your opponent does it first then feel free to do the same in the next game though!
Da Crusha:
Ok...define "Cheese", please.
I have played my CD's against High Elves...High Elves that get "Always Strikes First", Inititive 998, (Well not really...more like 5 - 3 more than our best Lord Choice) and "Killing Blow". They're basically a punching bag in a Challenge round.
I've had opponients call "Cheese" on me when I played against them with an army of CD Warriors with hand weapons and shields, Hobgoblins (Without Bolt Throwers) and maybe one Level 1 or 2 sorcerer.
I don't think our opponients realize that the CD's limited movement is balanced out by their fire power. Players i know litterally "Freak Out" when I pull a unit of 15 Blunderbuss out of my model tray and drop them on the field, "Cheese!" is being called out everywhere...and then when the BB's fire and the enemy's armor deflects the blow and only 1 guy out of their unit of 20+ dies, then it's not so "Cheesy" after all.
Actually, I only have 1 Death Rocket and 1 Earth Shaker. I also have 2 HG Bolt Throwers. Usually, I can clear a good number of enemies using those weapons, but the main strength is with my sorcerers and Blunderbusses.
Tarrakk Blackhand
your army choices don't sound like Cheese to me. usually cheesy lists are the hardest lists possible or have really nasty combinations. especially things that are not fun to play against.
nitroglysarine:
Naa, Cheese would be unit after unit of blunderbusses, one lord and nothing but Earthshakers in 2000pts.
Still if that rain spell is about that cripples black powder weapons is still around, you’re dead. 
Glimpse the Void:
It’s been helpful to hear all of these thoughts on your experiences. While I’ve your ear, would those of you who’ve not taken a gander at my first Chaos Dwarf list mind taking a quick look and letting me know what you think?
http://www.chaos-dwarfs.com/forum/showthread.php?tid=9046
Thanks.
monkeigh:
In 2000-2250 points I usually bring 1 Earthshaker and 4 Bolt Throwers, which is pretty tame. My shaker is likely to misfire at least once during the game, and my Bolt Throwers have a fun tendency to roll 1’s for wounding. with the improvements in stone thrower rules I will likely add a bit more artillery, and now that Bull Centaurs have taken a large hit in efficiency I might as well go for another shaker. I’ve found that most of the players that complain about even a moderate amount of artillery being fielded are generally those who didn’t think they had to invest in fast cav or scouts and have crippled themselves before the game even began.
snowblizz:
Here’s the deal.
Takes two people to make a good game of Warhammer, and artillery/gunlines usually don’t make for a great game. The reason is it’s very frustrating and/or boring when one players plays and the other can only remove figures. You also surrender a lot to the vagaries of dice. Roll well and the tatters of the enemy army won’t bother you, roll badly and you can’t stand against the enemy up close. At the end of such a game what have you to show for it? You didn’t do anything but roll fistfuls of dice and hope for better than average results.
This is a fundamental issue for both “dwarf armies” really. Play to their “strength” and “style” (defensive/shooting/counter attack) and the game isn’t going to be a lot of fun.
CDs may not have some of the funky special rules some armies have, but then they in turn don’t have rock-hard dependable troops backed with shooting and an excellent selection support units. Warmachines isn’t the only strength in CDs.
At the end of the day though, perhaps a little unfairly for the CD player remains the question, with your unofficial army, can you really afford to burn your bridges with opponents?
zobo1942:
Here’s a solution: Just play people you’d don’t like.
Tarrakk Blackhand:
Up for a game then Zobo - just kidding!
Loki:
I have only ever taken to much once, i like to have a fair balance in the army when i play , but this one time a mate who runs a dwarf gun line army wanted to see who had the best weapons , i was more than happy to take up the challenge, he took 2 organ guns 2 units of hand gunners and a couple of bolt throwers and a cannon and some non shooting units , i took 2 earth shakers and 2 death rockets and one unit of blunderbusses , i got first turn and it just went down hill form there for him , by the end with the help of the earth shakers i had lost a grand total of 4 hob goblins and had destroyed his whole army,
the two earth shakers are what did the damage with his army getting hit with two of the he could not move at all and could not shoot with his warmachines as he could not make his rolls to get them working. I would not feild 2 again as it takes the fun out of game as a whole but i was fun to only lose 4 models in a game 
Bassman:
About cheseeness (!). It really depends on many factors, not only on army composition. Yes, some lists are really cheesy but if you do not know how to play they are useless. I’ve seen people with a “normal” list grinding piece by piece my army and I could do nothing at all, just watch. Not to say they were great players and I am not that great. 
The most important thing in the game it is the way you play. I like to exploit my army strenghts and protect my weak points. If the game become like a chess game, it’s fun! IMO it’s moving your infantry (with cavalry support) where lies the fun of the game. So I always bring at least 3-4 core regiments of footsloggers without shooting. So nobody could complain if I take a couple of shakers and 2-3 bolt throwers. Good opponents can deal with them.
Of course this does not mean that it’s a great fun when grown men start to whine “I cannot shooooooooot… my elves are slooooooower than dwaaaaaaaarves… mum!!!” UAHUAHUAH!!!
Baggronor:
If you bring loads of artillery and your opponent has dedicated anti-war machine units and a brain, you’ll just lose. So it shouldn’t really be a big deal. Gun lines fall apart very quickly when faced by the right enemy and most armies have decent counters to them. In 8th, combat begins about a turn earlier than it did in 7th, which means you have less time to shoot as well, not to mention the fact you only get VPs for wiping things out, so all a unit needs is one survivor and all that shooting was for nothing. The most efficient way to wipe things out is combat, its a very deliberate design to make people take proper armies. And it works.
War machines also have hideous weaknesses. A few 6s to wound from shooting and they’re gone, they auto-fail initiative tests for Purple Sun, Pit, Crack’s Call, etc and are also vulnerable to other war machine fire doing multiple wounds. They are actually very tricky to defend well against a decent opponent.
Shooting is there to weaken targets and scare them into closing with your slow-moving Dwarfs. It won’t get the job done on its own, but it helps. For example, I run 2 Grudge Throwers, a Cannon and an Organ Gun with my (vanilla) Dwarf list, but I also have 4 big blocks of melee troops to do the business up close. With RH, its a similar deal; 2 Earthshakers, plenty of magic and then a total of 6 big infantry blocks to break heads. Both lists take part in every phase of the game that they are able to, and they are fun to play with and against.
I’ve found that most of the players that complain about even a moderate amount of artillery being fielded are generally those who didn’t think they had to invest in fast cav or scouts and have crippled themselves before the game even began.
Yup. 2-3 units of scouts/fast cav/harpies/whatever is enough to put most artillery enthusiasts on the back foot.
