[Archive] Chaos Star and GW

Khunag:

Does GW really have copyrights of (“to”?) the chaos star symbol? It says so in few places, it’s really weird, it’s like having copyrights of the pentagram or the yin-yang symbol… or is it only for some particular version, like in with an eye in the middle or something?

I’m asking because i don’t know if i can put it on my sculpts…

Baggronor:

It was first depicted by Michael Moorcock in his Elric books, as has been said on this forum many times (usually by me:)). The notion of GW owning it in any capacity is pretty dubious to be honest.

Khunag:

That’s what i thought.

What is the “chaos logo” that GW seems to own then?

Thommy H:

They probably have a copyright on it in the context of miniatures and a miniatures game. You might be able to put it on a t-shirt or something (the basic symbol of an eight-pointed star ending in arrows with irregular lengths is public domain, I believe - it’s a symbol of chaos and disorder that may even predate Moorcock) but if you tried to sell a figure with it on, GW might have something to say. That said, I think there’s a Hasslefree figure that uses it on their shield…

EDIT: Symbol of Chaos. Moorcock did indeed invent it, but evidently never made it a trademark or anything. It’s likely GW own the copyright (you don’t have to invent something to copyright it - you just have to use it a lot and get there first), but wouldn’t be able to enforce it unless the context was something that could be confused with GW IP.

Grimstonefire:

Interesting, I’m sure a few years back these parts read the ‘Chaos Star’, it might say this in some of the older army books? I am fairly certain it is older than moorcock.

Below you will find information about Games Workshop’s Copyrights and Trademarks. If you are interested in using Games Workshop’s images and logos on your own web site, we have something you should read first:

COPYRIGHTS AND TRADEMARKS

Last updated: 02 January 2008

COPYRIGHTS

All artwork and logos on this site and all the images contained therein have been produced either in-house or as work for hire. The exclusive copyright in the logos and artwork, including the images it depicts, is the property of Games Workshop Limited. © Copyright Games Workshop Ltd 2000-2008.

All subject matter in White Dwarf is © Copyright Games Workshop Ltd 2000-2008.

All artwork in all Games Workshop products, and all images contained therein have been produced either in-house or as work for hire. All rights reserved.

TRADEMARK INFORMATION

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Thommy H:

The thing with all those trademarks is that they can’t trademark something like “Space Marine” per se, but they can trademark it in the context of a miniatures game. It’s all about whether something can be confused for your product or not. So you can’t call your power-armoured figures “Space Marines”, but you could create a video game or wrote a book that used the term (although the existence of Black Library and Dawn of War perhaps creates a grey area regarding what ground GW’s business covers these days).

This is common sense if you think about it too: there’s a cleaning product in the UK called “Flash” and also a character in DC comics called “Flash”, but there’s no risk of anyone confusing the two, so it isn’t considered a trademark violation. I think the courts determine where any overlap might exist though: for example, the WWE (once the WWF) pays money to Marvel for the use of the term “Hulk Hogan” (the trademark might have since been bought by Hogan himself though) for any potential losses that might arise from Incredible Hulk merchandise confusion.

cornixt:

The chaos symbol is just a wind/compass rose, a pretty common feature of maps used to denote the compass directions.

Kera foehunter:

lol gw rip off the compass making people

wallacer:

GW are hardly in a position to be lecturing people. A sizeable percentage of their ideas have been ripped off from someone else.

Baggronor:

A sizeable percentage of their ideas have been ripped off from someone else.
Like, virtually all of them. :)

snowblizz:

A sizeable percentage of their ideas have been ripped off from someone else.
Like, virtually all of them. :)


Baggronor
Regardless... a lot of this relies on the siple question,

are YOU going to be the guy trying to push this through a court of law?

In most cases the answer is no. Copyright is one of those unfortunate parts of the legal system where justice is determined by the amount of money you have.

Father Grumpmas:

GW are hardly in a position to be lecturing people.  A sizeable percentage of their ideas have been ripped off from someone else.

wallacer
Get rid of Runequest and 2000 AD from the warhammer backgrounds and there is not a lot left . . . .

Apart from the stuff EVERYBODY stole from Tolkein :hat off

wallacer:

And the Council of thirteen from Fritz Leiber.

Hmm… I have kind of taken this thread off topic a bit.

Back on topic - I would think GW might be a bit uppity if a Chaos symbol appeared on a sculpture of a figure that was obviously infringing on their IP, but I’m not sure they would bother to do anything about it unless you started casting the figure and selling it.

dedwrekka:

GW are hardly in a position to be lecturing people.  A sizeable percentage of their ideas have been ripped off from someone else.

wallacer
Get rid of Runequest and 2000 AD from the warhammer backgrounds and there is not a lot left . . . .

Apart from the stuff EVERYBODY stole from Tolkein :hat off


Father Grumpmas
And Tolkien "stole" from everyone else.
Of course, Tolkien actually wasn't an original or even a close start to the chain of ideas.

Howard was a great inspiration for the sword and sorcery genre, actually having a good deal more hand in inspiring RPGs and Warhammer than Tolkien. Essentially he was creating the basis of Barbarians, wizards, sorcerers and clerics a good ten years before Lord of the Rings or The Hobbit. Which would eventually lead onwards to the pen and paper RPG, and eventually GW would start up as a distributor of Pen and Paper RPGs and supplements for them.

Then there's Lovecraft, which is more responsible for "Grimdark" than Tolkien's High Fantasy creation, and who was to Howard what CS Lewis was to Tolkien. Both pairs bounced ideas and themes off one another, tying each other's settings into one another in areas (Which would eventually lead to the Hellboy series long after their death, stemming from the "Lovecraft Circle Universe"*). The idea of the formless and unknowable gods and their creations of chaos is almost wholly ripped out of Lovecraft.

However, GW did do at least one known original addition to the genre, they made Orcs green.

*Lovecraft made many friends and introduced them all to one another, Leiber, Howard, Bloch, ect. He encouraged idea sharing and story sharing. In the end, the different ideas and stories built up enough to where you could build an entire setting on them.

snowblizz:

To be honest trying to establish who “invented” some part of fantasy is rather fruitless, as eventually it is based on folklore and old traditions from various different cultures. Egyptian, biblical, Eastern, Western, Germanic, Gallic etc etc etc. Fantasy is a hodgepodge of humanity’s “legends” and “myths”. A lot of people have added a thing or two to the mix over a long period of time.

I think we’d be hard-pressed to find something truly original, and even then it is usually only because they were clever in disguising the “original”.

I think the fundamental question here is “are you trying to mooch of someone else’s efforts?”. Creating a model with overtly Chaotic tones to try to sell them GW’s customers is likely going to be problematic, as it should be IMHO. They put the effort into creating the world as it is and should be benefiting from the “proceeds”.

Creating a model that has other purposes than to compete directly with GW is to be applauded however. I’d look at Felix’s work with Avatar of War as to how to thread the thin line.

Kera foehunter:

yea but the old one!!! did not cry about copy right !!

only the greedy money making people do!!

Baggronor:

only the greedy money making people do!!
I cry about copyright but I certainly don't make much money :)

apocalypstia:

another interesting point about the so called “chaos star” and what not is that Chessex Manufacturing/Distributors has a variation of that as a corporate logo. Dont really imagine Chessex paying royalties to GW for that usage, nor do i see GW allowing rental of the imagery.

Personally i think its just another attempt where GeeW is bullying the community at large.

Now i am sure i dont know all my timelines and chronologies… but werent orcs green in D&D? how does that early 70’s compare to GeeW’s “invention” of the green orc/ork? but i am begining to ramble… so 'nuff for now.

dedwrekka:

I think the fundamental question here is "are you trying to mooch of someone else's efforts?". Creating a model with overtly Chaotic tones to try to sell them GW's customers is likely going to be problematic, as it should be IMHO. They put the effort into creating the world as it is and should be benefiting from the "proceeds".

Creating a model that has other purposes than to compete directly with GW is to be applauded however. I'd look at Felix's work with Avatar of War as to how to thread the thin line.

snowblizz
That has other barbs on it as well. If you're going to fill a void in the line, are you mooching off someone's efforts or are you introducing your own ideas? If you have a new idea of what you think looks great, or you have the time to make a very detailed model, and you want to share it, is it mooching to sell it to make up the costs?

I'm not sure the pretense of making it for some other reason than to introduce your idea of the look and feel of a model makes it any less attached to the original setting or reason.

I mean, Reaper, Rackham, Privateer Press and Citadel started out as nothing more than companies making models for someone else's system (Pen and Paper RPGs: Privateer Press is still doing it).
another interesting point about the so called "chaos star" and what not is that Chessex Manufacturing/Distributors has a variation of that as a corporate logo. Dont really imagine Chessex paying royalties to GW for that usage, nor do i see GW allowing rental of the imagery.

Personally i think its just another attempt where GeeW is bullying the community at large.

Now i am sure i dont know all my timelines and chronologies.. but werent orcs green in D&D?  how does that early 70's compare to GeeW's "invention" of the green orc/ork? but i am begining to ramble.. so 'nuff for now.

apocalypstia
It's a symbol that they cannot reasonably copyright. I believe that the symbols they mention in the copyright information are different symbols (IE the Chaos Gods symbols).

Even long before GW different cultures around the world used an eight pointed star symbol of different styles to represent sun gods and the sun itself.