Da Crusha:
before I begin let me say that that this is an exercise. don’t let your hatred for cheese disrupt your creative energies.
I want to write the cheesiest chaos dwarf list possible in a 2500 point Legion of Azgorh list. what would it need? Im guessing it would need the destroyer of course. the chalice to dominate the magic phase. after that I think a lot of stuff is up to debate. some people say 3 magma cannons is the ultimate cheese but many people believe the deathshrieker is a better option. I have heard stuff about a 3 iron deamon list, I have never tried it though. I wrote a list once trying to emphasis our strength of war machines so it had no Infernal guard units, instead it had 3 blocks of about 50 hobgoblins with bows, a dreadquake, a hellcannon, a magma cannon, an iron deamon, 2 deamonsmiths with fire trying to get flame cage, and a level 4 Hashut wizard. I only played it once but it didnt perform so well. the khorne demon army was too fast. I did wipe out his huge blood crusher unit though. Im guessing that wasn’t an ultimate cheese list. so, what does it need?
don’t forget to add any experiences that brought you to your conclusion.
Geist:
1 K’dai, two fully kitted skull crackers. The rest is not really too important.
khedyarl:
I always wondered what three magma cannon, three Deathshrieker, and two Hellcannons backed up by 4 level one Daemonsmiths would do to somebody.
Stick a unit of 60 Blunders thirty wide by two deep an inch in front? Stand and shoot shenanigans?
1545 for the Smiths/machines, 1110 for the Blunders, little over. I’m sure the points could be tweaked accordingly.
Nominally, you should be able to remove pretty much any real ranged/magical threat to your army. Then you just need to worry about combat.
And I don’t want to fight whatever survives sixty Blunderbusses standing and shooting.
It’d be boring as hell, but that isn’t really the point of this excercise.
Da Crusha:
@Geist: I dunno skullcrackers can be pretty weak if charged by anything other than swarms, warbeast or infantry.
@khedryl: hmm that is very interesting a whole lot of firepower. with flaming sword and enchanted blades to improve effectiveness. would you go with those lores?
khedyarl:
Maybe? 
I hadn’t even really given much thought to which lore. Your best bet may actually be fire, just to eradicate any little flanking units without having to waste artillery fire, but the chance to get enchanted blades on the blunders is pretty amazing.
Probably fire for all four, to make sure you get flaming sword, fireball, and at least one other 24 inch blast.
MLP:
I always wondered what three magma cannon, three Deathshrieker, and two Hellcannons backed up by 4 level one Daemonsmiths would do to somebody.
Stick a unit of 60 Blunders thirty wide by two deep an inch in front? Stand and shoot shenanigans?
1545 for the Smiths/machines, 1110 for the Blunders, little over. I'm sure the points could be tweaked accordingly.
Nominally, you should be able to remove pretty much any real ranged/magical threat to your army. Then you just need to worry about combat.
And I don't want to fight whatever survives sixty Blunderbusses standing and shooting.
It'd be boring as hell, but that isn't really the point of this excercise.
khedyarl
This is maximum cheese really. make sure you have a castellan BSB in the blunderbusses so they never break and stock all getting to your war machines!
Baggronor:
Essentially, it comes down to How to Get your Opponent’s Points and Not Lose Yours, so with that in mind, and assuming a tournament setting, some units are just out straight away.
Lv4: Super-expensive, fairly average wizarding. I’d actually say he isn’t needed. His Ld is uneccessary in an army of Ld9 troops and the Chalice can be carried by a Lv2.
Daemonsmiths: Chalice + 2-3 Lv2s is the way forwards imo. Death for sniping is good vs everyone, and KILLs Skaven.
Castellan: Everyone needs a BSB.
Taur’ruk: Lots of Attacks and High Str and T, plus he’s fast. He’s a beast. In.
Wolf-Khan: In, for a very specific reason 
If he is standing 1" next to the Destroyer when some chaff tries to redirect him, the Destroyer can’t ‘close the door’ due to the Khan being too close to his massive base, so the chaff has to align to the Destroyer. The Khan can also chase down small units, chaff, war machines and intercept ethereals with a cheap magic weapon.
IG: Compulsory. Large units please. The guns are cool, but ultimately way, way too expensive.
Hobgoblins: Do they kill anything? No. Can our characters join them? No. Are they super-cheap? No. Out.
ID: Liability vs Brets and Ogres, vulnerable to Pit, Purple Sun, Crack’s Call, Brass Orb, etc. A fun choice but unwieldy and nowhere near user-friendly. Out.
Ironsworn: 17pts each. Infantry, so can be stomped, thunderstomped, Dreaded 13th’ed. Not naturally stubborn. 1 Attack each. Out.
BCs: Tough, fast, MB, average damage output. Big unit with a Crown-wearing Taur’ruk could be hard to get points off. In.
Fireborn: Fragile and prone to falling to bits from T tests. Hard to use well, but good at killing their specialty targets, ie non-great weapon infantry and have the highest damage potential of our elites apart from the Destroyer. In, but only in large units.
Magma Cannon: I don’t think anything more need be said here. In.
Deathshrieker: Pie plate or demolition shells for 100pts? I certainly think so. In.
Destroyer: In. Obviously.
Hellcannon: High strength template, and it’s a monster with a 5+ ‘Dwarf save’ from it’s handlers. In.
Dreadquake: The Quake effect is appealing, but ultimately the Hellcannon already does it’s job and more. Out.
Siege Giant: Who?
So what I’m looking at at 2500-ish points is some Death wizards, large blocks (30) of IG with war machines behind them, Destroyer, Wolf Khan and BSB and one unit of Fireborn or BCs+Taur’ruk. Sap your opponents magic dice and then snipe his characters with Death magic, shoot down easy targets and mop up with the elites. Anything else fights the stubborn IG. At least, that’s my take on it. The gimmicky lists like 6 war machines or double trains have big, big weaknesses.
Geist:
@Geist: I dunno skullcrackers can be pretty weak if charged by anything other than swarms, warbeast or infantry.
@khedryl: hmm that is very interesting a whole lot of firepower. with flaming sword and enchanted blades to improve effectiveness. would you go with those lores?
Da Crusha
Sure they can get stuck in, but with a 6 inch base move plus 2d6 charge. You have a fairly good threat range with your charges. Most things will not surive 2d6+2 st8 impact hits. In fact only 2 models come to mind that can have a chance against that. Dark elf peg invs ward lord, chaos 3+ward. Even those guys will be hard pressed to survive. If you roll average of course.
rpitts2004:
As long as your aren’t playing against ogres you’re good
Geist:
As long as your aren't playing against ogres you're good
rpitts2004
Biggest block of orges I have seen in my neck of the woods is 12bulls or ironguts. You run into that with an iron demon and you wont kill em all, but you have a great chance of making em run. Even if they dont run who cares? They are now locked up and wont kill that thing until turn 5 or 6. Mean time your running about killing rest of his army.
Da Crusha:
So what I'm looking at at 2500-ish points is some Death wizards, large blocks (30) of IG with war machines behind them, Destroyer, Wolf Khan and BSB and one unit of Fireborn or BCs+Taur'ruk. Sap your opponents magic dice and then snipe his characters with Death magic, shoot down easy targets and mop up with the elites. Anything else fights the stubborn IG. At least, that's my take on it. The gimmicky lists like 6 war machines or double trains have big, big weaknesses.
Baggronor
so pretty much what you re saying is that the hardest list we can make is the standard chaos dwarf army list minus the level 4... but its so standard. the list that khedyarl wrote up could probably take this on. they sit back, if the destroyer comes beelining to the blunderbuss then the entire army unloads on it. if that doesnt take it out then the warmachines will pummel the rest of the army for the rest of the game.
although, the problem I see though with the blunderbuss is, such a wide frontage means that a lot of time when it shoots many guys will be out of range, perhaps they should be split into 2 units.
Sure they can get stuck in, but with a 6 inch base move plus 2d6 charge. You have a fairly good threat range with your charges.
geist
The range is good but you have to charge straight forward. if they send chaff out for you to charge they can control what you hit. then counter charge with anything that cant be thunderstomped. the problem with skullcrackers is they are so limited to what they can hurt when charged and with the inablity to choose flee as a charge reaction or charge with the normal 90 degrees to the front, they have very limited control to what they fight.
Baggronor:
so pretty much what you re saying is that the hardest list we can make is the standard chaos dwarf army list minus the level 4... but its so standard. the list that khedyarl wrote up could probably take this on. they sit back, if the destroyer comes beelining to the blunderbuss then the entire army unloads on it. if that doesnt take it out then the warmachines will pummel the rest of the army for the rest of the game.
Well, I think in terms of an all-comers list, I think the standard build has the most options.
Regarding Khedyarl's list, yeah it's pretty damn scary. 8 war machines with 4 re-rolls. Yeesh. I'd run the BCs and Destroyer at the BBs, charging from 15.1" away so they only get a stand and shoot. At Strength 3, it's unlikely to do too much to either unit. Then it's a crap-shoot as to how much the artillery does x.x I do think it needs a BSB though.
As far as other armies go, would it have trouble vs large knight buses maybe? Saw some Empire armies running big units of 1+ save knights with Demigryphs in support - they'll be in combat fast and they're well geared to survive Str 5 shooting. Brets too? RAF lists could be on the war machines pretty fast.
Interesting.
khedyarl:
I think that the RAF list would probably give my list the biggest problems - anything with lots and lots of fast targets that need to die immediately, really. The list I presented is probably best at taking down really elite armies, deathstars, etc.
Da Crusha:
so to take down an RAF, what would the army need? Doom and Darkness can be helpful. with the current list you can cause 5 panic tests a turn without causing 25% casualties (2 from the hellcannons and 3 from the deathshriekers) you can hit the BSB unit with Doom and Darkness and then cause a panic test. could work if its not a grail knight unit. deploy castled up in the corner. with some chaff to choose flee you could have 3 or 4 turns of firing.
definitely not what the list wants to see across the table though.
Baggronor:
Also, I think it could find it hard to wipe people out at range if they just stay back and play for a draw. If the enemy army has no big targets, they could just deploy in lines one deep and try to wait it out for 6 turns in their own corner.
I think it would do well as long as people actually try to take it on, but if they try to force a draw, you may find it doesn’t get big wins.
nilbog:
If you’re going for cheese, you really need to min-max. As far as I can see, the LoA list could do any of these three:
Combat
Magic
Shooting
However, most combat options are expensive (IG with GW, ironsworn, fireborn, bull centaurs) except the destroyer.
Magic could be good with either lots of low level casters or level 4 plus support; but relying on magic is a dodgy prospect without extra input e.g. third eye, book of hoeth, sacrifical dagger which the LoA doesn’t have.
Shooting is obviously excellent.
So we should probably concentrate on shooting: maximum deathshriekers, magma cannons and hellcannons. Seeing as we’re going down this road anyway, we might as well have blunderbusses as well, and some daemonsmiths for reliability.
In a roundabout way, what I’m saying is that I agree with khadyarl. There is no point in spamming rock hard combat units, because, bar the destroyer, they’re inefficient for the cost. Same with magic, save perhaps spamming death on level ones, which you could do with the gunline anyway.
zhatan87:
The gunline list won’t win tourney to me…
A RAF dark elves lists, a dwarf gunline list, and even an empire 2 steam tank 3 cannons will win against it…
You shouldn’t forget that a gunline list is very dependent of whoever goes first… Against a speedy army (demigryff for example, which don’t care about S5 hits) or a dwarf/empire gunline, it can go wrong if CD player goes second…
But it will likely win games though…
I saw a player playing a no limit 3000 pts list with 3 magma, 2 death, 2 destroyers, and he makes a lower result than me (I played “only” 2 magmas, 2 hellcannons). And he has 2 destroyers, with which the opponent MUST deal with…
I have tried a list with deathstar of BC, and it works pretty well. You “only” fear the purple sun (which is the spell the CD player fears every times…)
Maybe the key is in a balanced list. And in a large format where you can play both warmachines (3 magma), and something to hold/take damaged units.
Baggronor:
The gunline list won't win tourney to me...
I'm inclined to agree. It'll do top 10 finishes if it doesn't meet any of it's bad match-ups, but it's too one-dimensional to win big events.
I think VCs could also be problematic. With the bubble VanHels, they'll be closing fast and regrowing casualties as they come.
I played against a 5 war machine version of the gunline at Summer Incursion with my vamps and the shooting didn't do anything meaningful. As soon as the Vampire Lord got stuck in, it was all over (tbh it was over as soon as my Hexwraiths tied up his Destroyer turn 2).
thrawn:
@Geist: I dunno skullcrackers can be pretty weak if charged by anything other than swarms, warbeast or infantry.
@khedryl: hmm that is very interesting a whole lot of firepower. with flaming sword and enchanted blades to improve effectiveness. would you go with those lores?
Da Crusha
Sure they can get stuck in, but with a 6 inch base move plus 2d6 charge. You have a fairly good threat range with your charges. Most things will not surive 2d6+2 st8 impact hits. In fact only 2 models come to mind that can have a chance against that. Dark elf peg invs ward lord, chaos 3+ward. Even those guys will be hard pressed to survive. If you roll average of course.
Geist
nah they're not that great. if they get charged by some cheap fast cavalry (a very feasible possibility) they're done. way too many points to be throwing away like that.
thrawn:
Essentially, it comes down to How to Get your Opponent's Points and Not Lose Yours, so with that in mind, and assuming a tournament setting, some units are just out straight away.
Lv4: Super-expensive, fairly average wizarding. I'd actually say he isn't needed. His Ld is uneccessary in an army of Ld9 troops and the Chalice can be carried by a Lv2.
Daemonsmiths: Chalice + 2-3 Lv2s is the way forwards imo. Death for sniping is good vs everyone, and KILLs Skaven.
Castellan: Everyone needs a BSB.
Taur'ruk: Lots of Attacks and High Str and T, plus he's fast. He's a beast. In.
Wolf-Khan: In, for a very specific reason ;) If he is standing 1" next to the Destroyer when some chaff tries to redirect him, the Destroyer can't 'close the door' due to the Khan being too close to his massive base, so the chaff has to align to the Destroyer. The Khan can also chase down small units, chaff, war machines and intercept ethereals with a cheap magic weapon.
IG: Compulsory. Large units please. The guns are cool, but ultimately way, way too expensive.
Hobgoblins: Do they kill anything? No. Can our characters join them? No. Are they super-cheap? No. Out.
ID: Liability vs Brets and Ogres, vulnerable to Pit, Purple Sun, Crack's Call, Brass Orb, etc. A fun choice but unwieldy and nowhere near user-friendly. Out.
Ironsworn: 17pts each. Infantry, so can be stomped, thunderstomped, Dreaded 13th'ed. Not naturally stubborn. 1 Attack each. Out.
BCs: Tough, fast, MB, average damage output. Big unit with a Crown-wearing Taur'ruk could be hard to get points off. In.
Fireborn: Fragile and prone to falling to bits from T tests. Hard to use well, but good at killing their specialty targets, ie non-great weapon infantry and have the highest damage potential of our elites apart from the Destroyer. In, but only in large units.
Magma Cannon: I don't think anything more need be said here. In.
Deathshrieker: Pie plate or demolition shells for 100pts? I certainly think so. In.
Destroyer: In. Obviously.
Hellcannon: High strength template, and it's a monster with a 5+ 'Dwarf save' from it's handlers. In.
Dreadquake: The Quake effect is appealing, but ultimately the Hellcannon already does it's job and more. Out.
Siege Giant: Who?
So what I'm looking at at 2500-ish points is some Death wizards, large blocks (30) of IG with war machines behind them, Destroyer, Wolf Khan and BSB and one unit of Fireborn or BCs+Taur'ruk. Sap your opponents magic dice and then snipe his characters with Death magic, shoot down easy targets and mop up with the elites. Anything else fights the stubborn IG. At least, that's my take on it. The gimmicky lists like 6 war machines or double trains have big, big weaknesses.
Baggronor
very good assessement!
should we put a points limit on this army of death?
k'daai fireborn are a must for me. on paper they look so-so, but 5 of them across charging his cheap horde guys (skaven clanrats, empire state troopers, DE spearmen, etc.) and they will chew through them! my k'daai have never dissappointed me.
the biggest problem i'm having is speed. you must take core, so your taking IG whether you like it or not. they are good, but trying to get them were you need them is next to impossible. every game i've played so far, my IG end up in awkward positions, but once they do touch an opponent they usually don't have any trouble. point is, our shooting guys are over priced, but at least they can inflict damage were needed, just make sure you put a castellan with them so they don't get run down and your not giving away points.
my 2000 (dirty) list would probably look something like this:
Daemonsmith Level 2
Lore of Death
Enchanted Shield
Dispel Scroll 160
Daemonsmith Level 2
Lore of Death
Charmed Shield
Channeling Staff 150
Castellan BSB
Double Handed Weapon
Iron Curse Cross
Dragon Helm
Dawnstone 175
Infernal Guard x27
Full Command
Champion Pistol
Warbanner 393
Hobgoblin Archers x20
Standard & Musician 112
Death Shrieker Missile Launcher 100
Magma Cannon 145
K'Daai Fireburners x5 275
Iron Daemon 285
Hell Cannon 205
Total 2000
If he is standing 1" next to the Destroyer when some chaff tries to redirect him, the Destroyer can’t ‘close the door’ due to the Khan being too close to his massive base, so the chaff has to align to the Destroyer. The Khan can also chase down small units, chaff, war machines and intercept ethereals with a cheap magic weapon.