nitroglysarine:
One thing to throw into the works.
Do they have to change their molds or make fresh ones for every model, if so that could add a cost. If not, and resin is cheaper to use, then they are ripping off their customers.
Sort of a cross over costing I can understand, but I’m curious to see if there is a difference in crispness between them.
Thommy H:
I read what you said. I get that there is (possibly) a cost increase associated with both materials. That’s fine. What I object to is the idea that we’re getting something that is definitley a better product (something I have yet to be convinced of) and which therefore justifies a sudden price hike.
GW are spinning this as a step forward in technology that means we’ll have to pay more. Which would be fine, except that isn’t true. GW haven’t changed to resin because it’s better: they’ve changed because it’s cheaper. That it might allow them to produce more finely detailed models is just a happy coincedence.
So they’re doing something behind the scenes that saves them money (maybe just long term) and pretending like it’s something they’ve done to give us a better, and therefore more expensive product. Do you see my issue? It’s not so much the price hike, as it is a price hike for dishonest reasons. Just tell us you want to charge us more, you know? Don’t use the very thing that should be saving us money as an excuse!
Grimstonefire:
To be fair that is the way GW have operated in the last 15 years or so. They justify their higher prices by saying it’s because of better quality.
They then reinvest millions in better technology with the extra profits, then raise their prices again because the quality has gone up.
A never ending circle.
There is no doubt their quality has improved. But how many of us would be happy now with the technology and prices there were say 5 years ago? Tough call that. But at some point I imagine they will need to ask themselves how much extra quality people are willing to pay for. How much they actually want.
The other thing I find hard to justify is when they put up the prices of things by 5% a year that have not changed at all in 5+ years.
aka_mythos:
I don’t disagree with the sentiment that higher prices are bad thing, but I think in this instance it could be far worse.
I think what people have to realize is the price rise was inevitable; it would happen either way. Resin makes it a less costly price rise. GW is just selling it as an increase in quality because it is and because even if you’re GW’s marketting you know you have to make the best of a poor situation.
It is fact, absolute fact that resins will produce better reproductions than most metal when using the exact same molds. It has everything to do with the contraction of material in cooling. This is exactly why FW uses resin despite similar labor costs as metal miniature production.
nitroglysarine:
And how much is actually needed?
I’d say i’m happy with where they were really, it was crisp enough to paint well enough, and looks pretty good.
With some stuff extra crispness isn’t needed. say a standard SMarine, lots of flat spaces and lines, extra crispness on them is unrequired. Some stuff like beards, faces, icons it might make them look better, but that is yet to be shown.
I’d like to see two of their models, one metal, one resin to show what they claim the cost is for.
aka_mythos:
Its a matter of alternative cost; the price of the status quo was higher than making a change. So they made the change. The by product was an improved quality.
Grimstonefire:
@mythos
Afaik their annual price rise for plastics equates to around 4-5% So this price rise is in line with that (more or less).
I don’t follow the rise in metals, so I can’t really comment on that.
It will be interesting to see in a year or two how they justify the next price rise for resin models. They can’t blame metal prices next time.
aka_mythos:
Tin the main metal in GW’s white metal alloy went from ~$8/pound a year ago to ~$13/pound today. Approximately a 60% increase in price. GW could have diluted the quantitiy of tin in their white metal by adding copper or antimony… but only to a small degree and to the detriment of their casting properties. Antimony went from ~$1/lb to ~$2.5/lb and copper ~$3/lb to ~$4/lb.
For GW to turn an overall profit of 9.5%… they apply a 400% markup over manufacturing to cover all their other costs. So if a model that cost $2 to make a year ago would now go from selling for $8 to now selling for $12.8 and at that increased price GW, from the perspective the cost for investment relative to the rate of return, profits would remain effectively the same.
This seems to hold true when you look at their statements for the last 2 years… they went from £110M to £130M revenue… while profits only really increased due to royalties from the video games being made.
warh:
It will be interesting to see in a year or two how they justify the next price rise for resin models. They can't blame metal prices next time.to correct you, half a year* :P
Grimstonefire
aka_mythos:
Most of what goes into resin is largely synthetic chemicals… any shortage of those could impact cost. I think the thing most likely to impact cost is a shortage of propane, which is necessary for making this type of resin. The other chemicals do tend to be the by products of other more lucrative products, so as their demand goes up and more is produced chemical companies have more stuff lying around to make these casting resins.
nitroglysarine:
Is ventilation required for metal casting? I’m guessing its VERY much needed for resin?
(trying to think of legitimate costs they need to sort)
aka_mythos:
I don’t know what the costs of the kilms or whatever they use to melt metal is so I can’t really give trade off comparison… but the cost of a calibrated 2 part chemical mixer dispenser for the scale I would guess GW needs would cost $100,000 per machine. They’d probably need two maybe three. Smaller machines would be about $20K~$30K… but they need many more of those and they wouldn’t be able to store the chemical parts as indefinitely.
nitroglysarine:
So if they said to us, we promise to fix the prices for 5 years, but to do so we have to buy some expensive equipment first to be able to make models cheaper which might be better in quality, so we have to put prices up a bit for now. I’d have far more respect for them.
Ishkur Cinderhat:
Seems like it’s the right time now for me to stop buying new stuff from GW and instead paint all the old stuff I have lying around already. 
nitroglysarine:
Seems like it's the right time now for me to stop buying new stuff from GW and instead paint all the old stuff I have lying around already. :/seconded, or move over to Mantic (but don't go near the elves ;) )
Ishkur Cinderhat
warh:
seconded again, I got to much unpainted plastic and metal models in boxes :PSeems like it's the right time now for me to stop buying new stuff from GW and instead paint all the old stuff I have lying around already. :/seconded, or move over to Mantic (but don't go near the elves ;) )
Ishkur Cinderhat
nitroglysarine
Thorne:
seconded, or move over to Mantic (but don't go near the elves ;) )Hey! I like the elves I think they would make great eldar or dark eldar maybe sisters of silence :P, Not great elves tho ;)
nitroglysarine
nitroglysarine:
true, but they aren't for me. ;)seconded, or move over to Mantic (but don't go near the elves ;) )Hey! I like the elves I think they would make great eldar or dark eldar maybe sisters of silence :P, Not great elves tho ;)
nitroglysarine
Thorne
Borador:
I must say I find it very silly of GW, though I am not thinking this is step one in their downfall.
Yes, they have low profits. Yes, it is an option to raise prizes, and that way lose some customers to increase profits (since a lot of people will continue to buy GW products to say, finish an army or something like that). I am not saying it is a smart choice, but it is probably well thought out, going bankrupt is not even GW’s goal for 2011. (guessing they must have at least one person who does sales management and the like ;p).
Think they rely to greatly on a classical ecomical approach, that their offering of their products will create a demand of it’s own. To me, that is not the best way to run your business, but to each his own.
I for one would lower the profit margin though, less profit a miniature/set to lower the cost, resulting in more sales. Maybe even dropping prices to reach a break even point, would drastically increase sales and the number of customers, then slowly raise prices again.
Just my two cents.
Like stated before by other, WF will seem “cheap” now, so you could call that a “plus” somehow.
Hashut’s Blessing:
I think the problem isn’t the price hike in relation to the material change. As Thommy H has been trying to say, it’s the reason that they have given. If they had said “we need to offset the cost of transitioning between materials in a production-sense”, we’d be less incensed - but their reason is higher quality casting using the exact same molds, which is ludicrous. The difference will be negligible at best: older molds will make the models look worse then they currently do (the Chaos Dreadnought comes to mind) and newer molds are crisp enough as is to negate any naked eye difference.
Frankly, as I have said many times before, Games Workshop are at a point where they are pricing people out of the market. If you had a choice between buying designer clothes and getting some normal clothes with some food for the week, we all know the sensible choice. Same thing with Games Workshop: buy some extremely expensive toys for painting and playing with or pay for some board games/console games and some electricity? It’s becoming a vlue for money thing.
Regarding the comment about a choice between prices/casting of now and 5 years ago, I’d always take the 5 years ago - the new stuff that was coming out then was of good quality and a higher price than I’d like, but I could still rationalise it. Not after this.