[Archive] Clarification on Firing Iron Daemon

thrawn:

Similiar to my other thread, before i spend the money and buy the model, i just want to clarify how does the iron daemon shoot?

roll 2 artillery dice, ok.

pick highest. ok

roll to hit . . . does that mean -1 for multiple shoots? -1 for moving and shooting? -1 for over half distance? because if that’s the case this thing truly sucks, it can’t charge crap and won’t be able to hit the broadside of a barn!

silentbob27:

-1 for multiple shoots - Nope. It doesn’t have the “Multiple Shots” special rule.

-1 for moving and shooting - Nope. Under the Lumbering and Unstoppable rule, “It may move normally up to its Move distance and fire its weapons without penalty while doing so”.

-1 for over half distance- Yup. Haven’t seen anything disregarding this.

thrawn:

-1 for multiple shoots - Nope. It doesn't have the "Multiple Shots" special rule.
-1 for moving and shooting - Nope. Under the Lumbering and Unstoppable rule, "It may move normally up to its Move distance and fire its weapons without penalty while doing so".
-1 for over half distance- Yup. Haven't seen anything disregarding this.

silentbob27
thanks for the clarification. still struggling to think of a way to make this thing more useful.

it's such a great model and cool idea, wish it was simpler/easier to use.

khedyarl:

I’ve found that there are few things in the game that kill monsters/monstrous infantry and cavalry and beasts quicker than a Iron Daemon cannon with Enchanted Blades cast on it. Hitting on 4s within 18, 3s within 9 {keeping in mind it can pivot unlimited number of times if it is just moving its base 6 inches} makes it pretty reliable at annihilating big stuff.

Ender SpiteSworn:

If also had really good luck with it. You will usually get 6 shots, hitting on 5’s , thats typically two S6 Hits with the Multiple wounds rule, better if you get to short range and you can turn right around and blast some one, hitting on 4’s. Meanwhile your opponent is dodging all of his units to get out of the straight line charge. If it gets charged its going to stay there and you can counter charge whatever is bothering it in a turn or two. Its a pretty good tool for dividing the battlefield in two generally forceing your opponent to move in ways that is inconvinient.

I typically demon bound mine to get the extra wound, T , and Magical attack which works on the shooting attack as well… I’ve been having fun with mine.

thrawn:

If also had really good luck with it.  You will usually get 6 shots, hitting on 5's , thats typically two S6 Hits with the Multiple wounds rule, better if you get to short range and you can turn right around and blast some one, hitting on 4's.   Meanwhile your opponent is dodging all of his units to get out of the straight line charge.  If it gets charged its going to stay there and you can counter charge whatever is bothering it in a turn or two.  Its a pretty good tool for dividing the battlefield in two generally forceing your opponent to move in ways that is inconvinient.

I typically demon bound mine to get the extra wound, T , and Magical attack which works on the shooting attack as well...  I've been having fun with mine.

Ender SpiteSworn
i remember reading somewhere, but i'll have to confirm this that the iron daemon's shots are not magical even if it hell bound.

can someone who knows confirm/deny this?

khedyarl:

Thrawn: Under the army point costs, it states that only the thunderstomp and impact hits are magical - however, that appears to be a screwup on FW’s part, since under the Hellbound rules, it states specifically that if an Iron daemon that is Hellbound suffers a misfire (only possible with the cannonade) it suffers d3 wounds.

Thommy H:

Why would that have any bearing on whether the shots are magical or not?

khedyarl:

Because it is nonsensical to think that the gun on the Daemon doesn’t get the bonus, when every other cannon/mortar/rocket in the army does, yet still retains the penalty. It’s likely FW simply forgot to add the word cannonade to the list that does get it, since the exact rule is that “only impact hits and thunderstomps, not the crew get magical attacks”. It specifically states that Impacts and thunderstomps get it, and that crew do not. The cannonade isn’t even mentioned.

Leads me to believe that it was missed in Forgeworlds oft rushed edit-job, and will be FAQ’d at some point if they ever get around to the second version of the FAQ.

Thommy H:

Maybe. I don’t think it necessarily follows though - an exploding cannon is likely to affect some nearby daemonic technology adversely, even if the cannon itself is not daemonic.

Ender SpiteSworn:

Thrawn:  Under the army point costs, it states that only the thunderstomp and impact hits are magical - however, that appears to be a screwup on FW's part, since under the Hellbound rules, it states specifically that if an Iron daemon that is Hellbound suffers a misfire (only possible with the cannonade) it suffers d3 wounds.

khedyarl
Hmm thats annoying, the rest of the statement about the magical attacks says something like "and not the crews attacks" which seams perfectly reasonable (although who cares about 3 - s3 attacks). It leaves the shooting attacks from the iron demon un-addressed, but the first part is annoyingling specific. It sure looks like they just didn't want magical crew. Is there a good email address to send questions too? I've sent in questions in the past on the email the use to send orders out, but never got responses.

KramDratta:


Hellbound bound warmachines cause fear and have their Toughness and Wound characteristics both increased by 1. All attacks and damage caused by the machine are now classed as magical attacks.
EDIT: Will be sending them an email to confirm wheter this was what was intended ... & perhaps update FAQ accordingly.

Thommy H:

It doesn’t need clarifying - the Iron Daemon’s rules specifically tell you what becomes magical. It may be an oversight, but the rules are pretty clear as written.

khedyarl:

Yes, it does need clarifying.  The rules state “all attacks and damage caused by the machine count as magical attacks”.  The rules listing then states that specifically crew do not get the benefit of magical attacks, while thunderstomp and Impact hits do.  Any mention of the cannonade is missing.  That is exactly what a clarification is for.  If it had stated that Impacts and thunderstomps gain the benefit of magical attacks, while the crew and cannonade do not, we wouldn’t be having this conversation.

silentbob27:

I think it mentions the impact and thunderstomp because i believe those are special types of attacks that dont normally benefit from other special rules. It is singling out those three as exceptions to the normal rules. Will have to check on that when I get in front of my BRB.

Far2Casual:

@silentbob
Impact hits normally do (e.g. Settra’s chariot has explicit flaming impact hits in the TK book), but you are right saying that normally, stomps do not benefit from any other special rules (e.g. K’Daais have non-flaming stomps). Making them magical is really an exception in the entire game, and by saying that I mean that I’m not sure it’s a good thing.

I would be tempted to say that the specific paragraph in the Iron Daemon rules were there to say which part of the model has magical attacks in close combat. It seems to me logical that the Dwarves do not get magical attacks because the machine is Hellbound, and I’m convinced it was the intent.

That said, there is nothing about the shooting attacks, so in my opinion the default rule applies and the shooting are magical if the Iron Daemon is Hellbound.

***

On a side note, the whole “stomp” thing about the Iron Daemon comes from the bad design of the actual behaviour of the unit in close combat. The Iron Daemon should be a chariot (like the Steam Tank), not doing any stomp but actual impact hits. And his D6 attacks in CC should be impact hits. That would :
a. resolve the really dumb situation where a 2 ton machine is blocked in CC by 3 Goblins on Wolves
b. resolve the bad design of giving him magical stomps which is clearly a huge contradiction with the rules of the rulebook AND the FAQs.

That would make the Iron Daemon playable and would make a lot more sense, while not making it OP at all.

KramDratta:

Note that magical attacks is not a Special Rule ( it is not listed in the BRB ).

Far2Casual:

True, but :

Q: Do Stomps or Thunderstomps benefit from any other special

rules, equipment or magic items? Or vice versa? (p76)

A: No to both questions.

Stomps made by a Greater Daemon are not magical. Why would the stomps made by the Iron Daemon be magical then ?

Thommy H:

Because it specifically says that they are. As it has no other close combat Attacks, Hellbound wouldn’t be much use otherwise.

thrawn:

Similiar to my other thread, before i spend the money and buy the model, i just want to clarify how does the iron daemon shoot?

roll 2 artillery dice, ok.

pick highest. ok

roll to hit . . . does that mean -1 for multiple shoots? -1 for moving and shooting? -1 for over half distance? because if that’s the case this thing truly sucks, it can’t charge crap and won’t be able to hit the broadside of a barn!