I am planning on buying a Chaos Dwarf army and would like to optimize the list before dropping the initial coin. I will be using the Legion of Azgorh army list from Tamurkhan: The Throne of Chaos. Here we go!
2500 Pts - Chaos Dwarfs Roster
Total Roster Cost: 2496
Lords:
Sorcerer-Prophet - Level 4 Upgrade, Talisman of Preservation
Sorcerer Prophet lays down offensive magic with Fire/Death or debuffs with Metal. Daemonsmith provides additional magic support while providing re-rolls to scatter/artillery dice for war machines.
Khans provide intercept/misdirect ability units and don�?Tt suffer from animosity like Wolf Raiders.
Infernal Guard give me 2 solid units to protect/support war machines and run in the way of enemy units. Blackshard armor and Relentless assist in this regard.
Bulls give me a fairly maneuverable unit that can hit hard and also intercept dangerous units.
Magma Cannons are broken against most troop types!
Deathshrieker Death Rockets possess dual role capability (troops or war machine/monster killer) depending on ammunition choice.
Dreadquake Mortar is great for softening up hard units or other war machines.
K�?Tdaai Destroyer is just all around nasty. Hunts other monsters or engages tough units.
My main concern with this army list so far is minimal units and almost non-existent ability to protect rear from scouts, etc. Flanks could also be problematic if I run up against fast armies (chariots/cavalry). Model count also seems fairly low for this point level. Hobgoblin units could provide cheap throwaway support, but Animosity worries me.
Seems pretty fine to me (would play them in a similar way), but here are some thoughts:
Drop the Khans.
Get your Priest the Charmed Shield (2+ Save against first hit), perfectly ignores the first misscast in monst cases Also give him the scroll of shielding against direct damage spells (especially death shnipers).
Go for sniping as well, killing chars is the thing CDs struggle with, unless you send in the Destroyer.
Your Daemonsmith should take lore of fire and the Ruby Ring of Ruin. 2 Fireballs per round will keep redirecting units and warmachine-survivors at bay.
For the rest of the points you should get the full command on the BCs, maybe a nice magical banner for them as well (flaming banner or +1 movement is pretty decent).
If you still have some points left over, think about adding a potion of healing to your prophet or simply exchange the daemonsmith’s pistol for an ironcruse icon on the prophet
Keep the Khan’s - they are gold in this type of list!
You may want to try one with a ‘fire’ gem. It’s a cheap upgrade and allows them to charge flaming things, especially Flamers, and get that 2++.
I’m unsure about the 5 x BC’s. I usually run 4 and find that they do their job well. I’m not sure that a 5th gives them any more utility, but the jury is still out on that one.
My biggest worry would be no BSB. We do have Ld10, but I’d be hesitant to take most 8th Ed armies to the table without one.
Based on the feedback provided, I’ve removed the pistol from my Daemonsmith and dropped the BC unit to 4. However, I’ve added a Standard Bearer and Great Weapons to the BC unit. I still think the overall number of units is low. I almost feel that a round of bad shooting/artillery could quickly place me in a tough jam.
Perhaps I would be better served with one unit of IG (x25, full command, Razor Banner) with the additional points spent on Hobgoblin Cutthroat units with bows and shields? Animosity is still an issue, but I continue to feel IG are the most inefficient units in terms of “bang for the buck” points. I could then drop the Daemonsmith for a Castellan (BSB, Banner of Slavery) and beef up my Sorcerer.
Drop the Dreadquake Mortar & go for a Hell Cannon. Same damage (without AP & Quake) but gives you the flexibility wheter to go gunline or go combat.
Unless you plan of having your level 4 outside the IG blocks, 4 warmachines need 2 Daemonsmiths minimum.
I would rather have 2 units of 3 BC with GW & shields than 1 unit of 5 with banner. They’re great at warmachine hunting/holding up blocks of S3 units, etc. If you’re going for 5 then add Tau’ruk with Crown of command & give the unit the +1 Ld.
Losing the BC unit and moving to one IG unit helped create points for hobgoblin archers and the IC BSB. I’m still not completely sure dumping the BC unit is wise, but I do believe the HC archer units within the IC BSB will be nice. I don’t like sinking so many points into a Hero with no ward save, so I may try to conjure up points for one. I’d love to grab another Daemonsmith, but I’m not sure where to shave the points.
the karns are gold, would any sane woc player not want maruder cav ? no your in about the same boat with 1 or 2 really good infantry units
to go that bit more redirecty take 5 wolf riders and stick your karns inside them. put them somewhere central to your main line and throw them out just before you get charged spliting your unit up and doing a triple redirect most people wont see it coming
I believe this list is optimized for the build at hand. While I am still unsure if the Infernal Castellan is worth the 197 pt investment, I do not think he is necessarily a waste at this points range either. I’ve integrated many of the ideas provided in this thread. Any other thoughts which would make this list any more competitive? I expect to face the nastiest of the nasty lists, so this army really needs to be prepared to go to work!!
Looks good. The bsb is definitely worth 197 points, as long as he stays alive, which you have certainly equipped him for.
One or two minor things:
I’d drop the luckstone from the daemonsmith to give an enchanted shield to your sorcerer prophet.
I’d sooner have a champion in my infernal guard unit than in the hobgoblins. If you’ve got two characters in there, you want to avoid challenges. Or you could drop the shields from one unit. Actually, either way, you could then afford both the luckstone and the enchanted shield.
Which magic lores are you going to use? in 8th edition its supposed to be written as part of your roster, no more picking after you see what your facing like in 7th ed.
Sorcerer-Prophet - Level 4 Upgrade, Enchanted Shield, Talisman of Preservation
Heroes
Infernal Castellan - BSB, Mask of the Furnace
Daemonsmith Sorcerer - Level 2, Charmed Shield, Talisman of Endurance
Core
Chaos Dwarf Infernal Guard x30 - Musician, Standard Bearer, Banner of Slavery
Chaos Dwarf Infernal Guard x30 - Musician, Standard Bearer
Hobgoblins Cutthroats x40 - Bow
Hobgoblins Cutthroats x20 - Bow
Hobgoblins Cutthroats x20 - Bow
Hobgoblins Cutthroats x20 - Bow
Special
Chaos Dwarf Magma Cannon
Chaos Dwarf Magma Cannon
Deathshrieker Death Rocket
Deathshrieker Death Rocket
Depending on the opposing army, the Daemonsmiths will either each deploy within an Infernal Guard unit or in between war machines. Generally, a Cannon/Rocket pairing will be placed to the left and right of my center deployment zones. The Level 4 will be using the Lore of Hashut while the Level 2 runs with the Lore of Death.
I may play-test a Destroyer if the model ever comes out. Until then, I think the list presented here is fairly strong.
I don’t really see anything that can dictate the game well - what are you going to do in the Movement phase? The war machines are good, but they won’t win the game for you - other gunlines can play that game better than LoA.
I would:
Drop some/most/all of the Hobgoblins and get some Fireborn/BCs/Destroyer. Hobbos really aren’t worth it imo and they are a hassle to convert.
For artillery, I would take a Magma Cannon, a Deathshrieker and a Hellcannon. That way you have 2 templates (one of which grants the all-important Str 10 for STanks and Sphinxes) and one Magma Cannon, not to mention the Hellcannon can fight in melee too. Too many machines can lead to misfire troubles; I prefer 2-3 powerful ones.
I would go Metal on the Lv2; its awesome support for IG and kills STanks and Hydras, saving your artillery for enemy infantry. Lore of Hashut already has a snipe spell, I wouldn’t worry too much about that.
I initially had 2 Rocket Khans in the list to intercept/misdirect enemy units, but opted instead for the Hobgoblin units. Prior versions of this list also included a small BC unit and a Destroyer. Dropping the Destroyer enabled me to increase the IG units to x30 from x20 and add a solid BSB. While I still would like to try out a Destroyer at some point, the BC unit was lacking in size (x3) as I could only work a small unit into the list with the 2 Rocket Khans and no BSB.
The strategy behind this build is:
1. Smash incoming infantry units with war machines (really the best units available to CD along with the Destroyer).
2. The x40 and two of the x20 Hobgoblin units throw mass missile fire (not the strongest, but annoying) at targets of opportunity until charged, then hold the line for as long as possible. The other x20 Hobgoblin unit either protects my deployment zone from scouts or reinforces one of the other Hobgoblin units on the flank.
3. Magic users focus on characters, enemy war machines and monsters.
4. IG units charge targets of opportunity and protect my war machines.
I originally thought about Lore of Metal on the Level 2 and may revisit this idea for the reasons you have provided. I own close to 70 original Warhammer Hobgoblin minis, so obtaining the remainder is not an issue. I am on the fence about the Hellcannon, though I welcome any feedback from those who have fielded it in their LOA army.
I will be testing this build over the next month or so. Hopefully, FW will release the Destroyer model soon. Without changing the list too much, where should I cut points to bring in the Destroyer?
On a separate note, this forum has been of tremendous assistance to me. I am very appreciative of all of the feedback provided to me!
Hellcannons are awesome because they pull double duty. Not only are they devastating in the shooting phase but they also do an excellent job of guarding your other warmachines. I’d cut a unit of hobbos and a rocket for one.
The biggest problem I see with the list is the lack of a solid flanker. You need either a destroyer, some kdai or some BCs or even a Taruk(sp).
I have not reviewed my original list for several months. However, I do think the Hellcannon merits inclusion. I will be testing this list against Ogre Kingdoms shortly.
2500 Pts - Chaos Dwarfs Roster
Total Roster Cost: 2500
Lords
Sorcerer-Prophet - Level 4 Upgrade, Enchanted Shield, Talisman of Preservation
Heroes
Infernal Castellan - BSB, Mask of the Furnace
Daemonsmith Sorcerer - Level 2, Charmed Shield, Talisman of Endurance
Core
Chaos Dwarf Infernal Guard x30 - Musician, Standard Bearer, Banner of Slavery
Chaos Dwarf Infernal Guard x30 - Musician, Standard Bearer
Also give him the scroll of shielding against direct damage spells (especially death shnipers).