It's all very disappointing anyway, and another swift, sharp blow to my already-fragmentary faith in humanity. Maybe I'll just find a new hobby.
Don't you dare. I need a fluff writer.
Their Chaos Dwarf illustration doesn't have a large flat nose though - he has a long, hooked nose, it just looks flat because of foreshortening. That's, ironically, one of the distinctive features of GW's CD range which Titan doesn't share. So they apparently don't even know what makes their own imagery unique...
I agree with Thommy that they don’t even know the specific details of their own imagery. Detailed photographs of the models in question is what is needed anyway. They’re comparing an artist’s drawing to a 3D model, what they should be comparing is Baggronor’s artwork with this piece of artwork and his models with one of the old plastic axemen, which this artwork represents - the likeness is even less convincing if one does that. The other important thing to note here is that GW has a wide and expansive range of ‘evil-looking dwarfs’ at some point someone is going to end up making something that has some similar features to somethign GW has made just because of the simple fact that there’s only so many ‘looks’ for beards and only so many types and styles of armour that can be designed.
As for arguing who got there first, forget it. Baggronor is going to lose that argument. GW started producing Chaos Dwarfs long ago… Baggronor only started selling his Titan miniatures before Forge World’s latest line of models, but everything else GW did in the past still stands.
As for a big F-U to GW. Get some free legal consultation (should be accessible with a little hunting) and if you decide to pursue this we could perhaps pass the hat around. I’ll happily put $200 of my own personal money toward this Baggronor, just let us know if/when you plan to pursue this and who your barrister is!
So to have a company I love turn its misplaced anger on a guy (and another, less involved but still helping out, guy) who is actually on their side, is quite dispiriting.
Thommy H
In all seriousness though, I don't see how they can compare that to an old big hat, Sure they wear armor and have beards.... Thats not enough to say it's copyright infringement
Just finished reading your post (and putting in a good size order to boot) and I think that Thommy has a very valid legal point. I say fight them tooth and nail on this matter. Don’t let them bully you and take everything that you worked hard for. From what I have seen your product looks far superior to what G.W has put out. I personally want to thank you for giving us a better option than having to put up with G.W’s high prices and inferior products. Fight the power, power to the people! Just my two cents. :cheers
From what I have seen your product looks far superior to what G.W has put out.
Stampy
It's not enough to be superior though, that's only sufficient to get a pat on the back from the fans and ultimately lose a court case.
In response to the general concensus from everyone here that Baggronor should fight back - it's all well and good to get riled up and become motivated to take action, but at the end of the day there needs to be some real tangible defence. Fighting for the sake of fighting sounds great but it's unproductive without substance. I'm willing to help fund a legal fight, but it has to be productive and have a good chance of success. I don't gamble and I'd never back a damp squib.
Look, here's what I mean from my previous post about fighting back by comparing like with like: model vs. model, artwork vs. artwork
Sorry about the incompletely painted model... it should really be an unpainted model from Titan Wargames compared with a plastic GW axeman, and neither model should be based, as it adds to the bias!
Very well done Nicodemus, I would also be willing to pitch in for legal defense, I would atleast try to get a consultmant of a legal team or good attorney that deals with these sort of issues
A small casting society called “Chapterhouse Studio” was making parts for GW models (salamanders shoulder pads, weapons, bone swords for tyranids), principally on stuff GW had not made yet, but had rules in their books.
As usual, if i remember well, those parts had unclear names such as “shoulder pads for dragon futuristic marines” instead of Salamander shoulder pad.
GW intended a court action against them, beacause they refused to stop their business.
In the end, court decided that Chapter House did not have to stop. Instead, some accordance was made with GW about which models they were allowed to produce, and which not.
Even if they did stop producing some parts, today on their website you can buy “Space Marine Stormraven extension”, with clear names and clear indications on the compatibility of their parts with GW plastic kits. And even pictures !
I think it was the first casting society to resist GW threats, and it seems that they won. That means their money won’t make them win this easily.
So, i do understand you may not want to start this fight, justice isn’t fair, it’s justice. Nothing tells if you’ll win. Your everyday peace is more important than pride. But since you made those models before forgeworld, you have some cards, and you don’t need a Hollywood-class lawyer.
I am not saying you should threaten GW to sue them for their infernal guards inspired of your royal guards (even if it could be awesomely fun :D), but if you fight, it may end up with new opportunities for titan-wargame.
Also, i think maybe you could ask chapterhouse studio how it worked. Maybe they would be glad to help someone else resist. Or maybe they will tell you who their lawyer was, he could help also.
Wish you many luck, strength, and swift and offending death to those threatening you :hashut
Sorry to hear that story. To me as a non-lawyer it seems to be a baseless accusation and I would say fight them, but I know it would cost time and nerves. My next step will be to order the stuff I want by you as soon as I get my paycheck and hope I can get more later on.
This isn’t the same as Chapterhouse - Chapterhouse didn’t even try to fly under the radar; they called the miniatures they made names from GW’s universes, they include GW models in the photographs advertising their conversion kits and the basis of their legal defence isn’t “we aren’t ripping you off” it’s "we’re ripping you off and that’s technically fine."
I’m biased here, but Titan Wargames has plausible deniability - yes, we all know where the curly beards and the tusks and the prevalence of bull imagery came from, and what it’s supposed to evoke - but the basis of my own contribution to the brand was to create a reason, independent of “hey look, Chaos Dwarfs!”, for these models to exist. We worked hard for their to be a good reason these particular Dwarves (not Dwarfs) might have tightly-coiled beards, a fierce appearance and a tendency to put bull’s heads on things. In addition to these (deliberate, but could-be-coincidental) similarities to GW’s range of Chaos Dwarfs - a range that had been OOP for around a decade when Titan Wargames first began selling its miniatures - there are any number of completely unique aspects that have nothing to do with GW or its universes.
John: I don’t know what your immediate plans for the range are, but how easy would it be to resculpt the curled beards into braids? That seems to be one of the main points of contention.
Chapterhouse is good stuff, If they can win, then you shouldnt have to worry =). but yeah I like the idea of talking to the guys at chapterhouse to see what advice they can give.
I think John’s opinions on Chapterhouse are pretty much the same as mine… This is what I meant about this being ironic - Titan Wargames has tried really hard to not rip anyone off. So for him to be hit with this, it’s pretty crap.
This isn't the same as Chapterhouse - Chapterhouse didn't even try to fly under the radar; they called the miniatures they made names from GW's universes, they include GW models in the photographs advertising their conversion kits and the basis of their legal defence isn't "we aren't ripping you off" it's "we're ripping you off and that's technically fine."
I'm biased here, but Titan Wargames has plausible deniability - yes, we all know where the curly beards and the tusks and the prevalence of bull imagery came from, and what it's supposed to evoke - but the basis of my own contribution to the brand was to create a reason, independent of "hey look, Chaos Dwarfs!", for these models to exist. We worked hard for their to be a good reason these particular Dwarves (not Dwarfs) might have tightly-coiled beards, a fierce appearance and a tendency to put bull's heads on things. In addition to these (deliberate, but could-be-coincidental) similarities to GW's range of Chaos Dwarfs - a range that had been OOP for around a decade when Titan Wargames first began selling its miniatures - there are any number of completely unique aspects that have nothing to do with GW or its universes.
John: I don't know what your immediate plans for the range are, but how easy would it be to resculpt the curled beards into braids? That seems to be one of the main points of contention.
Thommy H
It's bull. Totally. And I mean it. They have no case and if y a product that's been OOP along with that image they sent you for over 10 years would stand up then they're judicially retarded.
There can not be an infringement of a concept of "babylonian dwarves" - you'd have to have copied their design from a piece of original artwork or miniature to a substantial degree for there to be anything. This is pure bullying and it pisses me off.
