Use the “these are too similar” stuff from GW and then counter-sue with evidence that you sculpted them long before FW made them! I think a lot of us remember when we first saw the FW models and pointed out how similar they were to your designs, and .
Notice how they didn’t use an actual model for the comparison you posted above. Seriously, if the best they can come up with is that you have made a dwarf with a beard and historical armour then this won’t even make it to court, even GW know they would lose.
If you are in the gaming business and someone hasn’t threatened to sue you then you haven’t done anything interesting.
I’m reading this again on yet another forum. No disrespect to you at Titan but a number of firms in this business have been hit by rather unprofessional cease and desist notices from the big bad and it doesn’t seam like going away. Now I understand that you may feel it a blow but it seams to me that GW are running scared.
People are re taking their hobby and GW don’t like it. For every one of your royal guard you sell gw are loosing money bottom line. For each one of Mantics range that sells gw are loosing money. See the pattern. Gw are at the point where the huge amount of dead shelving in there stores gathers dust because different people are offering an alternative. But what can they do ? Lower prices and piss off shareholders because over priced stock just isn’t shipping ? Release more and different products ? Putting it simply they pay a low rate lawyer £100 per hour get him to sit with a redshirt member of gw staff and a laptop and save themselves a small fortune because independent people get scared when something that is a global brand attacks them. Hell McDonalds don’t send these letters to wimpy KFC burger king white castle or wendies just because they sell burgers.
But we still have a problem. Gw isn’t the powerhouse it was 5 years ago because of the global market, if the leaked release schedule is to be belived they have spent the last 4 years developing this version of 40k as well as what could be a possible 10 new ranges with warhammer 40k the hobbit ranges and warhammer too. Not to mention shockers like dread fleet and classic re release like space hulk.
Now all those that work in the retail arm all those that work in production and management even the neck beard matt ward need paying and without making good business for themselves by sending out these notices that make for bad business but make good business sence in the fact that it requires relatively little money to make the little guy scared.
I would question if they would intend fighting this notice you had recived or your products being much older but still better in detail and quality you are threatening there self confessed stance that they make the best miniatures in the world.
I think John's opinions on Chapterhouse are pretty much the same as mine... This is what I meant about this being ironic - Titan Wargames has tried really hard to not rip anyone off. So for him to be hit with this, it's pretty crap.
:mad aside from the legally, which I agree with Titan, if GW is so worried, they should produce and support the chaos dwarf line. If they continue not too, others will shop elsewhere. :hashut People will go to find and buy what they want at the best price… GW, go jump in a vat of molten lava…!!
Man, sucks to be reading this. GW seems to be bullying again, which is really unfair IMO as you have really done your best NOT to resemble GW IP in my opinion.
As said by others, I’d be willing to contribute to your cause, although I probably won’t be able to put in a lot of cash (being a 17-year old and all).
Hope all will work out and you won’t be forced by those big bullies over at GW legal to rethink and rework your line of Dwarves.
GW’s C&D are written by legal secretaries and not even by lawyers… so take that into consideration to the quality.
As far as Chapterhouse goes, its still on going, with a very frustrated judge… who’s tired of waiting for GW to produce evidence in specific enough form to make their assertions. GW’s initial suit was for trademark use, not copyright… that is they said “don’t use our products names”… which is specifically allowed under US law for the purposes of expressing compatibility. Only after 6 months of being in court they amended their arguement to include copyright claims, showing they hadn’t prepared anything until it was already in court. Copyright assertions have to be made with 1-to-1 comparisons between two like works, which GW hasn’t really done. In both this and Titan Wargames’ case, what GW would assert as infringing existed independent and prior to their work. In the US its difficult for a company like CH to prove malicious prosecution to claim fees in the eventuality GW’s proven wrong. CH’s lawyer brought on a specialist because it does look like GW prosecutions been baseless and solely to stomp competition.
One really hopes that a REAL monster-sized company should sue GW for copyright infringement, like say, how a Tau battlesuit looks like an awful lot as most Gundam mobile suit. Because they have two legs, two arms, a gun and a mono-eye.
And GW lawyers are small fish if one of those kinds of behemoths would sue them…
Like I said, I don’t think the cases are that similar, despite starting from the same basic situation. Chapterhouse aren’t denying their use of GW’s trademarks - they just contend that doing so is legal under US law (as indeed it might be; I couldn’t be less interested into getting into an argument about Chapterhouse). Titan has just produced figures with undeniable similarities, but I would argue has done enough to distinguish itself.
A similar situation happened with Heresy Miniature’s “Blight” models - which were essentially Plaguebearers in all but name. GW (rightly) pointed out that the similarities were unacceptable, but Andy had fortunately used the Blights to pilot a scheme for interchangeable heads, and it just so happened that only one of them was very Plaguebearer-like (one eye, central horn, etc.). So he sidestepped the issue by not packaging the offending head with the Blights, and keeping it as part of a separate conversion kit. Then he made a load of other, non-Blight, figures that used the modular heads too. So, you can put together a Plaguebearer-clone, but only if you buy two totally separate kits and use them together.
Similarly, the Titan Wargames Dwarves clearly skirt close to GW’s IP, but there are sufficient inherent differences - we all assumed - to pass it off as a possible coincidence. The idea is to fly under the radar, and maintain plausible deniability. No one’s cashing in on GW here, except in as much as this forum was inspired by an OOP GW product range, and we’re the ones who pushed John into making Titan Wargames happen and now make up most of its customer base.
Very sorry to hear this Bagg. The bit you’ve shown from GW’s letter looks absurdly amateuristic to the point where I’d wonder if it’s actually really coming from GW and not some prank. The situation is no joke though. It’s easy for us here to say that you should take a stand and that we support you, but the truth is that it will surely drain a lot of your time and energy, if not money. In the end it’s you taking the hits, even if you have a solid defence and we’re all morally on your side.
I’m no expert on these things, that’s why my first advice would be to contact someone who is - a lawyer. At the very least to help you get insight in to what’s going on and what the best course of action would be. A solid response to this first message from GW might settle the whole thing in one go.
As for comparisons; the comparison made between your hero model and their big-hat art is very weak in my opinion, but using that comparison as a reason to get you to stop producing Heavy Infantry and Royal Guard is even more ludicrous.
I’ll echo the tip to maybe contact other companies like the aforementioned Chapterhouse, even though they have a different case (I think). My thoughts immediately went towards Avatars of War however, surely they’re likely to get a similar treatment from GW so it might be worthwhile to have some communication going on there.
I’d say you’d have a very strong defence if it comes down to court, especially since you produced your models before FW came around. I don’t know how things work with IP and trademarks though, so get someone who does
Best of luck Bagg! You know I’m a huge fan of your work, so I truly hope this turns out for the best.
This is one of the most ridiculous things I have read for a long time, I’m not able to go into all the reasons why for fear of my head dissolving in disappointment.
Although it will not even make a dent in the horde of cash they are so desperately trying to salvage I WILL NOT BUY ANY MORE CHAOS DWARF MINIATURES FROM GAMES WORKSHOP.
This is a very poor show, I wish you all the luck mate and hope you can make a go of this as you are certainly in the right.
If you need money to fight their legal staff, start a kickstarter, them we all start spamming that project like crazy (the internet is full of people frustrated by GW).
any ways good luck, I wish I had money today my rent this month, I really want a few of your models but that could be some time before I have cash to spare I hate the idea of them not being around anymore just because GW is to big.
If you need money to fight their legal staff, start a kickstarter, them we all start spamming that project like crazy (the internet is full of people frustrated by GW).
Bolg
I know I've already made my point above, but would that money not be much better spent getting new models cast instead of fighting a battle he may lose/ not be able to afford? Losing would (I imagine) put Bagg out of business as (I imagine) it's him personally and not Titan Wargames that would be sued????? Afaik Titan Wargames is a non legal entity (though obviously I will be proven wrong ;))
Edit. The actual number of models in question, whilst significant to Bagg, are not actually that many that it would be too much to rework and recast or (in the case of heroes) drop as product lines.
Very sorry to hear this Bagg. The bit you've shown from GW's letter looks absurdly amateuristic to the point where I'd wonder if it's actually really coming from GW and not some prank.
JMR
Fair point. I mean, I haven't seen the rest of the document but the bit you showed looks like something people can make out of Word and than export in a PDF format. Maybe this mail doesn't come from GW but from some other competitor of yours (this things happen)???
As I said before, what happens if you just ignore the situation and keep on with your business???
Like I said, I don't think the cases are that similar, despite starting from the same basic situation. Chapterhouse aren't denying their use of GW's trademarks - they just contend that doing so is legal under US law (as indeed it might be; I couldn't be less interested into getting into an argument about Chapterhouse). Titan has just produced figures with undeniable similarities, but I would argue has done enough to distinguish itself.
Thommy H
For CH that was only initially... Afterwards it became about copyright and on that part my point was that GW has a far broader reaching view of copyright than is typical. I don't believe Titan did anything wrong.
Also, maintaining "plausible deniability" has been used in court as evidence of the intent to decieve which has repercussions if GW were to seek monetary damages, so you may want to be more careful of what you say. CHS made decision on sound legal advice which lead to another firms willingness to represent them for free.
My sympathy goes out to Titan and I hope it's resolved well enough for them... That's the most important thing here.
Its been said a thousand times but I will chime in. Get legal consultation and continue selling your minis. BUT I’m not as sure you will win a legal battle as most people here. There are clear differences between your and GWs dwarves/dwarfs. But there are also clear and tangible similarities. The beard, The tusks, the armor style, the whole dwarf bit ect. Its a pretty slippery slope. Also the FW minis were probably copyrighted a year before their release.
If your lawyer says fight(he will, it pays him win or lose) fight, but dont ruin your life/company if that’s what it comes down to.
Also I can’t access your website. Is this a coincidence or have you been shut down?
good luck bagronner, like everyone else has already said, its time to lawyer up. maybe contact other small companies also to see what they have done. Raging heroes might be good to email, especially since they made changes specifically to avoid prosecution.
