Kera foehunter:
I see your point. its so hard to believe that we women can fight in this manner…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vd1MTq8kv_Y&feature=related
I hope this Cheered you up Baggs
Kera
Forget the blacksmith code;P
JMR:
I completely understand your situation, Bagg, and why you choose to try to avoid a conflict, but I have to say that it’s disgusting to see that GW gets away with their bullying like this. Justice would be to see a judge dismiss GW’s accusations and reprimand them for their filthy “business” tactics, making them compensate you for time/effort/money lost.
As for reworking models - I fear GW is just going to pull the same stunt again after you’ve remodelled stuff. You’re expecting them to be reasonable, I’m not sure GW has reasonable in their vocabulary…
snowblizz:
That's pretty much what I was wondering. It's really getting at the heart of the matter. No one has dared or been able to challenge the assertions of GW so no one really knows what's what.There's somekinda free basic legal advisory for small-business in the UK? Or something?Yep, I've had some free legal advice and spoken to a few other small mini companies too, they were all helpful. No one seems to be able to say for sure what the odds are like, as GW haven't actually said what right I am supposedly in breach of (like have they registered 'Dwarves with curly beards' or what?). Either way its moot anyway.
Baggronor
Being vague is actually fiendishly clever. Absolutely ensure it would need to go to court because it's nigh impossible to get anyone to check it beforehand.
So frustrating. And I'm not even affected in any way whatsoever. Except it is really poking at my sense of justice and decency.
frogbear:
Rather than lose the design of the beards, could you not adopt the design as beads or precious stones weaved through the beards?
That way it would be up to the buyer to paint the miniature outside of its intended purpose rather than the designer specifying the style of beard that Grandma has a problem with.
Just a thought…
gIL^:
I say if they persist we should camp outside GW HQ wear big hats and provoke them.
In all seriousness GW shouldn’t be doing this, Many people have aspirations to become sculptors and resellers and the only way GW will feel the pain is in the wallet, Simple as that.
Admiral:
If I were you I would not rework the beards, although I’d consider adding a few miniscule trinkets woven into the beards (akin to the miniature skull amulet in the AoW Chaos Dwarf lord’s beard) just to put them further apart from GW.
You have curly beards on your dwarves, but also straight, combed beards and braided beards. This is an important point in case GW takes you to court or persists in their foul methods. They cannot nail you on the scalemail design (especially since the old big hatters had rounded or square scales whereas your dwarves have hexagonal scales, predating the FW CDs). They cannot nail you on the armour design or the weaponry, but they have a slim chance of nailing you on the curly beards. Don’t let them forget the varied beard styles in your dwarf range if that day arrives. Do not let them make you put off a hell of an effort into reworking your existing sculpts. If nothing else, your customers can’t wait for reworks, they want Royal Guard command and riflemen models, as well as gobbos!
This little affair is a stain of shame upon Games Workshop, which I do not appreciate since I am close to being a GW loyalist even though I regularly point out some sculpting flaws and ridiculous pricing policies.
beefcake:
I haven’t read the whole thread, jus page 1 and 5 but would you be able to sell your designs to a bigger company who would have the legal backing to fight back?
Thommy H:
Would they buy my background too? I think that plan is a bit like killing the patient to cure the disease…
snowblizz:
I haven't read the whole thread, jus page 1 and 5 but would you be able to sell your designs to a bigger company who would have the legal backing to fight back?No.
beefcake
No one in their right mind would buy something which is under legal dispute.
Grimstonefire:
Another idea I’m fairly confident would work legally would be to sell bodies. To sell heads seperately.
Logically people would put them together, but that way as a complete sale they would not be an issue (with some work on the heads)
Thommy H:
That’s what Andy Foster did with the Heresy Blights that fell foul of GW’s legal threats. Not sure how easy it would be for such stocky models though, or how cost-effective it would be to go fully multi-part. If John’s going to do multiple heads, he may as well just make non-infringing ones and leave it at that. Either way, the whole range would need to be redone - I’m pretty sure interchangeable heads couldn’t be engineered from the existing models.
beefcake:
I guess that’s also what raging heroes did with the not lamassu. Sell as the manticore buy the extra head separately. Was that raging heroes. It would be hard to get the fit well with the beards etc as that is a problem. This would leave a huge amount of filling to do by the purchaser.
JMR:
(...), he may as well just make non-infringing ones and leave it at that.I think it's important to point out however, that the current models aren't infringing anything. Most certainly not any copyright laws. The problem is not that Titan's models are offending any laws, it's that GW's claim -unfounded as it may be- threatens Titan's financial well-being.
Thommy H
I'm afraid that GW will simply make another unfounded claim after reworks are done, putting Baggronor back to square one - or even worse, because he has spent time reworking his range instead of expanding it.
Just a small caveat, and I think I've said this before in this thread, but I'm far from an expert on copyright/trademark/IP laws. So maybe my assumptions are simply wrong, but I doubt it. I'm pretty sure you can't claim exclusive rights to things like "tusks", "scale mail", "large hats", "evil dwarves" or any combination thereof. What you can't do, however is copying their product. Which in the case of a miniature would be recasting.
Oh by the way, just thought of something that is also rather important to point out. All of the Titan models have a tab on their feet saying they're Titan models. There can't be any confusion in thinking they're GW models or anything.
I guess that's also what raging heroes did with the not lamassu. Sell as the manticore buy the extra head separately. Was that raging heroes.Well, Raging Heroes was simply making a Manticore model and then someone suggested that it would make a great Lamassu with an alternate head, so they made one. GW claimed the head was breaking IP laws and Raging Heroes complied with their demands pulling the head out of their store (as far as I know without putting up any kind of fight). Recently they reworked the head and are selling it separately.
beefcake
Thommy H:
They won’t make a claim of IP-infringement if they don’t resemble anything in GW’s IP.
To explain the logic of the claim: GW aren’t saying only they can make models with scale mail, or only they can make models with tusks, or curled beards, or that are dwarves or whatever. What they’re saying is that when all these things are combined what you have is something that resembles a GW Chaos Dwarf, and is therefore based on intellectual property that belongs to them. And, to be totally frank about it, they do sort of have a point. Because that’s what John’s been making: models that can be used as Chaos Dwarfs in armies inspired by the rules and background written by Games Workshop. Come on, this is Chaos Dwarfs Online. I’ve got pictures of his figures in my book saying that they’re Immortals, or Chaos Dwarf Warriors or whatever. We use them in our armies as those units and we post pictures to that effect. We all know what they’re supposed to be. A claim of IP-infringement like this is based on the idea of someone unlawfully making money from someone else’s work, that Titan is cashing in on the work GW did to create and promote Chaos Dwarfs, by making obvious stand-ins for these models. Which is kind of true, but it lumps him into the same category as blatant rip-off merchants, when this is really a tiny (one man) company embarking on a labour of love.
And the reason it’s frustrating is because, when Titan Wargames started trading, there were no official Chaos Dwarf models, and certainly not any that resembled these ones. Maybe the Hellcannon crew, but they’re significantly different from the original Chaos Dwarf range. Then, in the meantime, FW released their Chaos Dwarfs, which looked a lot like the Titan Wargames dwarves. Suddenly, there’s an explosion of interest in masked evil dwarves with curly beards, and that’s I guess when it came to GW’s attention and they sent the e-mail. So it sort of went backwards, and I guess we all assumed for a long time that John had “gotten away” with making these figures because, yeah, they do fly a little close to the sun. But we wrote some stories and he did some cool, unique designs to put some clear water between the two ranges. The wizards are different from anything GW does, for example.
Anyway, everyone suggesting John fights this has to realise that this is something he does in his spare time. This isn’t his living. He doesn’t have the time or energy to hang around courtrooms arguing with GW’s lawyers I’m sure! There are good arguments against the claim, but there are some good ones in favour of it too, and the worst case scenario is that John has to sculpt some more toys for us to buy.
Lord Aldades:
Has anyone actually thought of the fact that an e-mail has no law-valid footing in any case? In order for an official CnD, one must send this by registred mail, by a recognised sollicitor or employee of the chamber of commerce.
Which doenst mean its an official lawsuit when that happens, only that your then officially asked to either stop whatever you are doing, or its going to court. <br><br>At least, thats the commerce rulings within the European Union.
Thommy H:
Yeah, no one’s saying this is a legal document - John talked to a lawyer who said it was all pretty much hot air. This is how it works though: GW don’t bring out the big guns until they have to. Paying their lawyers to put together something that will stand up in court costs money. Even getting their lawyer’s clerks to do something will incur a fee.
So, at this stage, it’s enough to get some admin gopher from the office to bodge together a PDF and send it off. It only needs to be a threat. Most small companies will cave at this stage to avoid the possibility of later legal action that they can’t afford, and may not win. Why risk having to scrap your figures and potential legal costs? GW is banking on the fact that they can stamp out IP violations without spending a penny (except for an hour of one of their employee’s time) because most people will take the easy option and just stop selling or alter their products. It doesn’t need to be anything but hot air at this stage.
Chapterhouse bucked the trend by calling their bluff, but they could only do that because they called in a favour and got an IP lawyer to represent them pro bono, thus avoiding the whole problem with legal costs. That’s not feasible for almost anybody else in this situation, and it may not even work out for Chapterhouse, long term.
cornixt:
This is the crux of the matter. Big companies can push around small companies or individuals becase they have the power to do so. It doesn’t matter if the models infringe in any way or not, going to court will cost you silly amounts just to defend, not to mention the soulcrushing stress a court case will cause. I’m sure that just receiving the letter has caused more than a few lost hours of sleep, especially with the vague and nonsense accusations that get your mind working overtime.
mireadur:
maybe set in another country the company adress? i hear GW cant attack gamezone nor avatars of war because of spanish different laws about copyright?
Thorne:
maybe set in another country the company adress? i hear GW cant attack gamezone nor avatars of war because of spanish different laws about copyright?Thats a interesting Idea. From what I understand now a certain company that I know for a fact recived a C & D notice from GW moved from england to spain to avoid that predicament the plot thickens ...
mireadur
Thommy H:
Given that Titan is a one-man operation, I doubt this is a viable solution.