Exactly. Like I said, it’s a stupid rule. The intention, one assumes, is to allow it to hit Screaming Bells and other stuff that looks like a war machine/chariot and sort of works like one but isn’t for whatever reason, but they’ve worded it too vaguely. It should just hit chariots and war machines, and anything that’s unique or a monster just isn’t affected, even if it looks like it should be. There are loads of arbitrary little things like that in the game already.
Doesn’t bother me anyway: I’d never take the Flask even if I was using LoA for the one or two games I play a year.
Arachnaroks, the *sphinxes, Thundertusks and Stonehorns have split profiles too though - what makes them different from a Screaming Bell, for example? Yes, they're clearly monsters, but if we're defining the units it affects not by unit type but by the presence of "chariot-like" characteristics, you can see how it might cause problems.
Thommy H
Screaming Bell and Furnace are mounts and counted as Infantry. If the Furnace has Pox it then becomes Cavalry. If they weren't they couldn't be part of a unit of infantry. They're very similar to a Nurgle Palanquin that way. I'm sure the Flask was meant to be a war machine killer. Chariots are a type of war machine that have a different set of rules, but traditionally, they're war machines (they used to be labeled as such back in 4th or 5th edition). The flask includes things that are "chariot like" and share many of the same qualities such as the Doomwheel (the description of the Doomwheel states that it moves like a chariot). Basically, the flask would effect anything that is labled as a War Machine, Chariot or "Unique" but says it acts like a chariot with certain exceptions.
I too live in the Calgary region and I think there is a bit of grey area on open vs closed. The rule is that you are supposed to show your opponent your list beforehand but no one ever does, it’s like an unwritten gentlemans agreement. I’ve played in 15+ tournaments and I’ve never once checked someones list and never had mine checked until after the game and then mostly out of curiosity.
Screaming Bell and Furnace are mounts and counted as Infantry. If the Furnace has Pox it then becomes Cavalry. If they weren't they couldn't be part of a unit of infantry. They're very similar to a Nurgle Palanquin that way. I'm sure the Flask was meant to be a war machine killer. Chariots are a type of war machine that have a different set of rules, but traditionally, they're war machines (they used to be labeled as such back in 4th or 5th edition). The flask includes things that are "chariot like" and share many of the same qualities such as the Doomwheel (the description of the Doomwheel states that it moves like a chariot). Basically, the flask would effect anything that is labled as a War Machine, Chariot or "Unique" but says it acts like a chariot with certain exceptions.
tvandyke
Yeah, I get it. I'm not asking what it affects - I'm saying there's ambiguity. If you have to cite rules from three Editions ago to draw a conclusion, we can both agree there's an issue, right?
Screaming Bell and Furnace are mounts and counted as Infantry. If the Furnace has Pox it then becomes Cavalry. If they weren't they couldn't be part of a unit of infantry. They're very similar to a Nurgle Palanquin that way. I'm sure the Flask was meant to be a war machine killer. Chariots are a type of war machine that have a different set of rules, but traditionally, they're war machines (they used to be labeled as such back in 4th or 5th edition). The flask includes things that are "chariot like" and share many of the same qualities such as the Doomwheel (the description of the Doomwheel states that it moves like a chariot). Basically, the flask would effect anything that is labled as a War Machine, Chariot or "Unique" but says it acts like a chariot with certain exceptions.
tvandyke
Yeah, I get it. I'm not asking what it affects - I'm saying there's ambiguity. If you have to cite rules from three Editions ago to draw a conclusion, we can both agree there's an issue, right?
Thommy H
I agree with you. Just another reason why I'll probably never bother with the item. I could just see a game where there's a dispute (especially in a tournament) about what counts and what doesn't. Judge comes over and rules that his big, nasty, unique item counts as a "chariot like" model and then I destroy it with the flask. Should make for a wonderful game. ;)
As to the vulnerability of the Sorcerer Prophet, mounted on a Monster (the only way I would play the item), he would have a 3+ armour save. Also, I intend to fly him behind my Destroyer. Cannons have to kill the Destroyer before they can reach him, and any other shooting would suffer -2 to hit.
Not really. The cannon can nominate a spot 1" from the end of the Destroyer's base and have a good chance of landing the shot on the Prophet and his Taurus (as its a minimum 2" bounce, it clears the Destroyer and has a good chance of landing somewhere on the Taurus' long base)... Trust me, I've done it plenty of times to Bloodthirsters who like to hide behind big blocks of Fiends and they're on smaller bases than a Taurus. Cannons are the bentest thing in Warhammer, especially Dwarf cannons.
Very few things will reliably kill him, and whatever is targeting him isn't targeting the Destroyer, or my little 10 man MSU units of Chaos Dwarfs.
But he is more points than the Destroyer, easier to kill and harder to redirect, not to mention he is also your best wizard. And if you have tonnes of 10 man units that are worth few VPs individually, it makes him even more of a worthwhile target... He is what, 680pts? And the 100pt bonus for being the general? Yeah...
As for the item, its not only 100pts, its 100pts plus the loss of all the stuff you would otherwise give the Prophet that is so much better. I'm not saying I couldn't find a use for it, just that it is utter garbage compared to a ward talisman, arcane item and magic armour... If I'm going to spend 100pts on a magic item for a 300pt Prophet, it needs to win the game when it goes off and 99.9% of the time this won't. If it was 50, it might be worthwhile as a laugh once in a while. At 100, no way.
He’s 625 points exactly (which is convenient for games of 2500 points), and his base may be 100mm long, but it’s only 60mm wide. The Destroyer, being on a 100mm x 150mm base can hide the entire Bale Taurus if you put him perpendicular to cannon fire.
Since that’s only 2.36 inches wide, enemies can only hit the Bale Taurus if they roll a 2 on the initial artillery dice roll. If they roll a 4 or more, it overshoots. So that’s only a 1 in 6 chance, and no chance whatsoever to hit the Destroyer.
Also, having used large monsters quite a bit, I know how to abuse the rule that they can’t target my unit if they have a chance of hitting their own. It’s actually pretty amazing where you can put your units so they can’t be targeted by enemy cannons.
"I know how to abuse the rule that they can't target my unit if they have a chance of hitting their own. "
GodHead
It's that sentence right there that raises an eyebrow. Perhaps I'm totally misinterpreting your intent, but if a rule needs to be abused to employ some sort of tactic, I'm not sure how fun the game is going to be. I guess I'm coming from a standpoint where I think we're trying to gain acceptance for this army and using abusive tactics along with an item that has the potential to decimate a large portion of an opponents army with a single use isn't going to help that cause. Like I said in an earlier post, more than likely if you show up to a tournament with this, there will be 4 out of your 5 games where the item was really not worth the investment or even useless. However, no one will hear about those games, all everyone will talk about is the one game where that single item won the game behind some cheesy tactics. Now, that's not to say I won't ever use it. If I'm playing a friendly, multiplayer game where's there's 10,000 points on each side, I might throw it on one of the Lords for giggles and hope it works.
By the way, I hope I'm not coming off as critical. One of my good friends designs every one of his armies this way. He's always looking for that single magic item combo or big spell, etc in every one of his armies and every single battle plan always revolves around springing that one big trap that will win the game and his winning percentage is around 40% as a result.
Its chessy takes away from the game and irratates people not for me, all games that I have played are open been playing 25 years and thats what I have seen.
It’s even more ridiculous because of how blandly you stated it and how you have provided no justification whatsoever for your point of view, and how dismissive you are being.
Please see khedyarl’s posts, as well as those of Thommy H, cornixt, tvandyke, and indeed everyone else in this thread for how to make useful posts that move the discussion forward.
He's 625 points exactly (which is convenient for games of 2500 points), and his base may be 100mm long, but it's only 60mm wide. The Destroyer, being on a 100mm x 150mm base can hide the entire Bale Taurus if you put him perpendicular to cannon fire.
Since that's only 2.36 inches wide, enemies can only hit the Bale Taurus if they roll a 2 on the initial artillery dice roll. If they roll a 4 or more, it overshoots. So that's only a 1 in 6 chance, and no chance whatsoever to hit the Destroyer.
Also, having used large monsters quite a bit, I know how to abuse the rule that they can't target my unit if they have a chance of hitting their own. It's actually pretty amazing where you can put your units so they can't be targeted by enemy cannons.
Mm true enough. I generally don't do things like put models facing in the wrong direction to gain advantages, ruins the spectacle of the game for me (wolf riders who run around backwards because of animosity for example). But it is legal ofc.
And to be fair, if you've got yourself amongst his units so he can't cannon you, then fair play too.
Closed list = power gaming
There are more things in the game that are ruined by open lists than closed imo. What's the point in assassins or Master Rune of Challenge if your opponent knows they are there? Takes away half the fun of it, surely. I've been to a few open list tournies, and my conclusion was that it actually makes it easier for the good players not the worse ones, so the end result is more predictable. You know where the key items are, you know who has what saves, you know if your opponent has taken a risky combo instead of the usual stuff. It gave me wins that otherwise might have been more in the balance. Less fun imo.
"I know how to abuse the rule that they can’t target my unit if they have a chance of hitting their own. "
I going to explain it to you as it was explained to me about 15 years ago.
"I have 2 children a wife and a full time job,when I come to play with you I take time from my family,Jon Im not saying I dont like playing you I do but I build my army in my spare time I build an army thats fun and balanced or themed I build this army to spend some time with my friends,I dont build an army to rip your hear out,and I expect the same for my friends next time you build a list that I dont have a chance to win againts , just give me a call and tell me you won"
That was told to me by one of my best friends and it a good lesson about sportsmanship and fair play. I dont think your going to get it but I gave it a try. Play the way you want thats your choice have fun.
Jon, if you want to debate the finer merits of sportsmanship, please be welcome to create a new thread. If you don’t have any concrete statements concerning the merits or flaws of the Flask of Azhor, then really, there isn’t much for you to say in the thread. That isn’t to say to you don’t interesting points, but rather than they belong in a separate thread, so as to not derail this one.
Stonecrusher Mace: The Stoncrusher Mace confers +3 Strength. When rolling To Wound against war machines and chariots (including War Altars, War Shrines, Steam Tanks and Corpse Carts, and so on) or buildings, the character's Strength is increased to 10.
Q. Are the Skaven Screaming Bell and Plague Furnace affected by the Stonecrusher Mace�?Ts special ability? (p92) A. Yes.
100 pts and i dont think u will get them back especially if u are on a taurus.
every good empire/dwarf/ogre player knows that putting all ur warmachines in the same spot is simply wrong. i really dont see how u can hide a bale taurus behind a destroyer now that true line of sight is in effect. u may get a cannon, and if lucky u may even force a unit to lose a panic check. good for u. but then ur general worth of 625 pts will die from other machines/wizards, etc etc. so u will have traded the game for a warmchine, perhaps a chariot and a unit.
Personally, I think its great this discussion is being had. I hadn’t thought about using the Flask in this manner. My friends and I often play mega battles with 2500/3000pts each (6000pts a side) if we ever run a 4000pts+ game I’ll definitely consider taking one as a second lord.
Normally I’m against this sort of layering behavior, but I consider it acceptable if its used to make a sub-optimal list/army competitive. I know I’ve done it before with Dark Eldar before they got their new codex in order to keep them competitive.
I’ll let you know how it goes. Here’s hoping he takes Corpse Carts!
It was actually a different VC opponent than the last time, but ended up with the corner/corner deployment scenario (I forget the name)
I forget the specifics of his list, but he had 2 level 4 Necromancers, a number of units of Zombies, a sizable unit of Ghouls, a unit of 30 Grave Guard with Great weapons and Banner of the Barrows (+1 to hit), a unit of 4 Crypt Horrors, 2 Varghulfs, a couple units of hounds, a corpse cart with Lodestone and a Mortis Engine with the book upgrade.
Pretty balanced, kind of all over the place as far as unit selections go. A good balance of chaff and fight.
My priority targets were the Varghulfs, Crypt Horrors and Ghouls. Unless I could get a solid charge, I planned to avoid/delay the Grave Guard as long as posisble.
Things went pretty well according to plan. The rockets did massive casualties across his army, only to have them come back. Sometimes he’d bring a few extras back, or a rocket would miss, and he’d get ahead, sometimes I’d roll really well with the Rocket and set him back some. Luckily this didn’t leave many dice for other purposes, so essentially, I had shut down his magic phase for 200 points.
My magic did decently well, notes were incinerating a healthy Varghulf in one go with Burning Wrath. Nothing else much happened. I tried continually to target his Wizard’s with Curse Hashut, to no result. I had cast Breath of Hatred in the first turn, uprated version, and it was never dispelled. So that was very helpful.
I kept the Grave Guard by luring them outside of the general’s 12" march bubble, and then just danced around them (with Dwarfs). 2 failed charges later, and they never saw combat (until turn 6), with a unit of Iron Guard in the front, Iron Guard in the flank and Ironsworn in the rear. They died before they got to swing.
The Flask of Ashak didn’t get used to turn 5, as my Sorcerer prophet was busy with other matters. When it was used, it did just a single wound to the Corpse Cart, but blew up the Mortis engine, which finished off the Corpse Cart. The explosion also did some damage to several of my little units, but thankfully they were already engaged all over the flanks of the Zombies by that time, and winning combats handily even down a few models.
The K’daii didn’t make a great showing for himself again, and due to some poor placement on my part (that’s 2 games in a row now) got combo charged by both the Ghouls (in the front) and Crypt Horrors (in the flank). To be fair, the Ghouls needed an 11 to charge, and the Cryp Horrors. The bubble re-rolls to hit from Van Hels worried me. The resulting damage the Destroyer inflicted to the Ghoul unit rendered them a non-threat, but the K’daai was poisoned to pieces and died in the second combat round.