[Archive] Daemon Flask of Ashak Discussion

Archive [Archive] Chaos Dwarf Discussion
1

GodHead:

I haven’t seen much discussion of this item, so I thought I’d start some.

It’s mind-bogglingly expensive, being 100 points. The only characters we have that can take it are expensive Lord level Wizards. On first glance, many players may think there is a lack of utility in the Daemon Flask, because some armies may be immune to it, but I think it can be a very useful item.

Let’s look at how effective it is against most armies (on average):

Beastmen - subject to Panic, likely have chariots (moderately useful);

Bretonnia - subject to Panic, may have war machines (moderately useful);

Chaos Dwarfs - subject to Panic, tons of War Machines (very useful);

Daemons of Chaos - not subject to Panic, no chariots or war machines (likely useless);

Dark Elves - subject to Panic, may have chariots or war machines (Cauldron!) (very useful);

Dwarfs - subject to Panic, tons of war machines (very useful);

Empire - subject to Panic, tons of war machines, Steam Tanks, War Altar, etc. (very useful);

High Elves - subject to Panic, may have chariots or war machines (moderately useful);

Lizardmen - subject to Panic, no chariots or war machines (moderately useful);

Ogre Kingdoms - subject to Panic, lots of chariots (very useful);

Orcs & Goblins - subject to Panic, lots of chariots or war machines (very useful);

Skaven - subject to Panic, Doomwheel has profile like a chariot (very useful);

Tomb Kings - not subject to Panic, lots of chariots, war machines (Casket of Souls = 1+) (super duper useful!);

Vampire Counts - not subject to Panic, likely have some very expensive chariots (corpse carts, Mortis Engine, Coven Throne) (quite useful if they have even one of them);

Warriors of Chaos - subject to Panic, no war machines, maybe chariots (moderately useful).

As you can see, the Daemon Flask is at least of some potential use against every army except Daemons.

Against about half the armies, the Daemon Flask is, on average very useful. Destroying an opposing Dwarf army’s war machines, Anvil of Doom, or a Casket of Souls or a Cauldron of Blood, or an entire unit of chariots, is all game changing.

Aside from its average utility, it has incredible potential utility. Sure Panic tests are passed by most units on Ld10 with a re-roll. But get some units on the flank, or even if the enemy fails that Ld10 re-rolled test, and you’ve totally altered the scope of the game.

It seems to me, to be the #1 item in the list, and I intend on giving it some work in the near future. I intend to run it on my Sorceror Prophet on Bale Taurus, that way it can get into position easily.

I’ll let people know how it goes.

Does anyone else have any thoughts on the matter? I’m interested on hearing if people have bit the bullet and tried this thing out.

2

phoenixlaw:

I haven't seen much discussion of this item, so I thought I'd start some.

It's mind-bogglingly expensive, being 100 points. The only characters we have that can take it are expensive Lord level Wizards. On first glance, many players may think there is a lack of utility in the Daemon Flask, because some armies may be immune to it, but I think it can be a very useful item.

Let's look at how effective it is against most armies (on average):
Beastmen - subject to Panic, likely have chariots (moderately useful);
Bretonnia - subject to Panic, may have war machines (moderately useful);
Chaos Dwarfs - subject to Panic, tons of War Machines (very useful);
Daemons of Chaos - not subject to Panic, no chariots or war machines (likely useless);
Dark Elves - subject to Panic, may have chariots or war machines (Cauldron!) (very useful);
Dwarfs - subject to Panic, tons of war machines (very useful);
Empire - subject to Panic, tons of war machines, Steam Tanks, War Altar, etc. (very useful);
High Elves - subject to Panic, may have chariots or war machines (moderately useful);
Lizardmen - subject to Panic, no chariots or war machines (moderately useful);
Ogre Kingdoms - subject to Panic, lots of chariots (very useful);
Orcs & Goblins - subject to Panic, lots of chariots or war machines (very useful);
Skaven - subject to Panic, Doomwheel has profile like a chariot (very useful);
Tomb Kings - not subject to Panic, lots of chariots, war machines (Casket of Souls = 1+) (super duper useful!);
Vampire Counts - not subject to Panic, likely have some very expensive chariots (corpse carts, Mortis Engine, Coven Throne) (quite useful if they have even one of them);
Warriors of Chaos - subject to Panic, no war machines, maybe chariots (moderately useful).

As you can see, the Daemon Flask is at least of some potential use against every army except Daemons.
Against about half the armies, the Daemon Flask is, on average very useful. Destroying an opposing Dwarf army's war machines, Anvil of Doom, or a Casket of Souls or a Cauldron of Blood, or an entire unit of chariots, is all game changing.

Aside from its average utility, it has incredible potential utility. Sure Panic tests are passed by most units on Ld10 with a re-roll. But get some units on the flank, or even if the enemy fails that Ld10 re-rolled test, and you've totally altered the scope of the game.

It seems to me, to be the #1 item in the list, and I intend on giving it some work in the near future. I intend to run it on my Sorceror Prophet on Bale Taurus, that way it can get into position easily.

I'll let people know how it goes.

Does anyone else have any thoughts on the matter? I'm interested on hearing if people have bit the bullet and tried this thing out.

GodHead
Use Lore of Death.  Hit their generals unit with Doom and Darkness.  Suddenly the panic tests are not on Ld9/10 any more. Also Death stacks with Hellcannons well too.
3

hobomcg:

The item says you can activate it at the start of the players turn, does this mean i can use it at the start of my opponents turn?

4

cornixt:

I see it as a fun item to use against a regular opponent to surprise them every now and then. It’s too expensive and limited to be part of a proper army build.

5

GodHead:

I see it as a fun item to use against a regular opponent to surprise them every now and then. It's too expensive and limited to be part of a proper army build.

cornixt
cornixt,

It's precisely that attitude I want to explore.

What makes you think it is too expensive or limited to be a part of a proper army build?

I've shown above how useful I expect it to be against the various opponents, except for Daemons, it will have some use against anyone, and our army is very, very strong against Daemons, with or without the Daemon Flask.

I would feel comfortable taking it to a tournament. What, specifically, makes you think it is limited?
6

khedyarl:

One of the problems you may run into, GodHead, is the absolute lack of defensive items you can take on your prophet {an already exhorbitively priced model, without the 100 point flask}. He’s begging to be assassinated while running around with a 4+ save and no ward.

In addition, as everything we have is very pricey, we really must see definite benefit from each of our points expenditures. 100 points is a lot {not to mention the above point} to spend on an item that could potentially do very little. Yes, there is the chance you absolutely wreck a dwarf/empire gunline, but for every game like that, you play one in which you do a few scattered wounds, they pass their panics, and you’re down 100 points on a naked Prophet.

I’d like to play with it a few times, but I don’t know. It’s just such a risky item.

7

tvandyke:

I see it as a fun item to use against a regular opponent to surprise them every now and then. It's too expensive and limited to be part of a proper army build.

cornixt
cornixt,

It's precisely that attitude I want to explore.

What makes you think it is too expensive or limited to be a part of a proper army build?

I've shown above how useful I expect it to be against the various opponents, except for Daemons, it will have some use against anyone, and our army is very, very strong against Daemons, with or without the Daemon Flask.

I would feel comfortable taking it to a tournament. What, specifically, makes you think it is limited?


GodHead
It's your typical all or nothing, gimmick item. Against the right opponent with the right build (lots of chariots or war machines), when you get it in the right position and you roll well, you'll destroy your opponent with it. Then he'll hate you for it. No one likes to lose to a single item or spell that they're helpless to stop. Your Destroyer could run around and kill off your opponents entire army and I'm sure they won't hate that as much. At least there's an opportunity to kill it. Most of your games I'm sure the results will be mixed. It might panic a unit off the table if you're lucky or might kill a war machine or two. Most likely, you'll use it and roll 1 or 2 wounds against a few things (that would be me) and be thinking "what a waste". Now you're running around with a naked, expensive general. Also keep in mind that if you're running open lists (most people do), your opponent is going to know what it does and spread out his war machines so you can't get them all in one 18" radius. These types of items are much better if you can put them on hero level character.
8

Thommy H:

And, as khedyarl says, you can only give it to a Sorcerer-Prophet, around whom your whole strategy is going to have to revolve anyway, since he’s the only Lord character available. That’s 100 points not being spent on perfectly good RFBRB items that aren’t ridiculously likely to do nothing at all and which might actually keep your general alive or complement your strategy.

In other words, if your entire battle plan doesn’t revolve around the Flask, there’s no point in taking it. And if it does, you’re committing yourself to a really boring game. It’s lose-lose.

9

GodHead:

Also keep in mind that if you're running open lists (most people do),

tvandyke
I disagree heartily with this statement. Around here, no one plays open lists. No tournament supports open lists and it would be a shocking turn of events to have someone want to play that way.

Generally, from what I have seen in years of perusing the internet, is that only about 30% of the Warhammer community plays open lists, and the majority play closed lists.

Where I play, it's 100% closed.

As to the vulnerability of the Sorcerer Prophet, mounted on a Monster (the only way I would play the item), he would have a 3+ armour save. Also, I intend to fly him behind my Destroyer. Cannons have to kill the Destroyer before they can reach him, and any other shooting would suffer -2 to hit.

If you don't plan on putting him on a monster, putting him in a bunker would be a good bet, as you likely don't want him engaged in combat anyway.

As to the "gimmick" nature of the item, I don't see it. There are lots of ways to lose this game off one dice roll. Cannons and a failed Look Out Sir!, instant death spells, Screaming Skull Catapults killing a single model, and making your general flee off the table with his retinue.

I'd compare this item to the Hellheart. I think it has solid potential to cause a moderate amount of damage - certainly 100 points worth. If you kill a single cannon (and you will on a 3+), you've made your points back. If you Panic a single Fast Cav unit off the table, you've made your points back. Sometimes you'll do a bit more, sometimes a bit less, sometimes a lot more, and sometimes a lot less. In that respect, it's like anything else in this game.
10

cornixt:

What makes you think it is too expensive or limited to be a part of a proper army build?

GodHead
Others have already said what I think, but I'll elaborate anyway. It's 100pts, so no other useful items for your only Lord character. It is only 18" of range, so you have to get the bearer closer to the war machines if you want to take them out. That is really only feasible on a flying creature, and you are relatively unprotected. Lastly, panic tests can be pretty variable.

That being said, if you play an army that castles up and you want to disrupt them for a turn or two of extra shooting, it might be worth taking, but is near useless against some armies.
11

tvandyke:

Also keep in mind that if you're running open lists (most people do),

tvandyke
I disagree heartily with this statement. Around here, no one plays open lists. No tournament supports open lists and it would be a shocking turn of events to have someone want to play that way.

Generally, from what I have seen in years of perusing the internet, is that only about 30% of the Warhammer community plays open lists, and the majority play closed lists.

Where I play, it's 100% closed.

As to the vulnerability of the Sorcerer Prophet, mounted on a Monster (the only way I would play the item), he would have a 3+ armour save. Also, I intend to fly him behind my Destroyer. Cannons have to kill the Destroyer before they can reach him, and any other shooting would suffer -2 to hit.

If you don't plan on putting him on a monster, putting him in a bunker would be a good bet, as you likely don't want him engaged in combat anyway.

As to the "gimmick" nature of the item, I don't see it. There are lots of ways to lose this game off one dice roll. Cannons and a failed Look Out Sir!, instant death spells, Screaming Skull Catapults killing a single model, and making your general flee off the table with his retinue.

I'd compare this item to the Hellheart. I think it has solid potential to cause a moderate amount of damage - certainly 100 points worth. If you kill a single cannon (and you will on a 3+), you've made your points back. If you Panic a single Fast Cav unit off the table, you've made your points back. Sometimes you'll do a bit more, sometimes a bit less, sometimes a lot more, and sometimes a lot less. In that respect, it's like anything else in this game.


GodHead
Well, not sure where you're from (I'm from California), but I honestly can't remember the last time I've played a game that was a closed list. I've been playing regularly in tournaments since 1999. I usually only travel out of California once a year anymore but I used to go to East Coast tournies in Baltimore and Toronto every year and usually went to Seattle and Little Rock. I've been to the GW GT once in England. All have been open lists. Maybe things have changed in some areas. It doesn't change my opinion though. You're basically saying your battle plan is to hide your general behind your destroyer to protect him. That means you're large portion or your battle plan is tied to a single 100 point item. I like more versatility than that. Sometimes I may need my general on the left flank and my destroyer on the right. You're basically hyper focused on trying to get the most bang for your buck with that single item. Again, when it works really well, you're opponent will hate it. Not my idea of a fun game and I don't like winning that way. You asked for our opinion, but it looks like you've made up your mind.
12

GodHead:

One thing I hadn’t considered with the Daemon Flask is taking saves against the automatic wouns inflicted.

It seems that enemies would get to use whatever save they have against the automatic wounds - unmodified. That decreases its usefulness quite a bit…

13

khedyarl:

To begin with, I’m not really sure where you’re getting your numbers for open vs closed lists. If you’re talking about tourney play, I can assure you that the western half of Canada plays open lists, and for non-competitive play, everywhere I’ve been {from Vancouver, Prince George, Edmonton, Calgary, etc} the gaming groups there use open lists. I’m not debating the merits of one vs another, but I don’t see where you’d get the impression that closed are so widespread.

Second, if your plan is to take a warmachine-ruining 100 point item, which will excel against armies LIKE Dwarfs and Empire, the absolute final incredibly last thing you ever want to do with your Taurus riding 3+ save 600 point prophet, is stick him behind another large 360 point model so that they can nail both with cannons, or almost guaranteed one with stone throwers et-all.

Third - this thing isn’t a Hell heart. It has an eighteen inch range, can only be taken on a Lord that is hugely expensive with no real survivability beyond T5 {as opposed to the four wounds T5 a Slaughtermaster has} It allows Chariots to receive their saves, doesn’t even affect SteamTanks or Hellcannons…

Ultimately, the more I think about it, the more worthless it becomes. You are putting your only lord on a Monster {which cranks his cost to 600ish points}, with no defensive items barring his 3+ save from being mounted and Blackshard armour. You’re putting him dangerously close to the opposing army, and counting on an item that does a random number of wounds to make up the points cost of both itself, and the now naked prophet. Keep in mind, a 100 point one-use item doesn’t need to make up its own points - it needs to make up its points, in addition to the points that it would have made up every turn it was normally active. Prophet hit by a cannon? 4+ mask save, boom. That item just made up the cost of a prophet, an extra level of magic, and all the items on the prophet. Plus, you have 35 more points to play with. If you want a close up Prophet, hell, give him the bale taurus, the mask, and the Hammer, and fly him around annihilating things.

Man. Now I kind of want a combat Prophet.

14

GodHead:

To begin with, I'm not really sure where you're getting your numbers for open vs closed lists.  If you're talking about tourney play, I can assure you that the western half of Canada plays open lists, and for non-competitive play, everywhere I've been {from Vancouver, Prince George, Edmonton, Calgary, etc} the gaming groups there use open lists.  I'm not debating the merits of one vs another, but I don't see where you'd get the impression that closed are so widespread.

Second, if your plan is to take a warmachine-ruining 100 point item, which will excel against armies LIKE Dwarfs and Empire, the absolute final incredibly last thing you ever want to do with your Taurus riding 3+ save 600 point prophet, is stick him behind another large 360 point model so that they can nail both with cannons, or almost guaranteed one with stone throwers et-all.

Third - this thing isn't a Hell heart.  It has an eighteen inch range, can only be taken on a Lord that is hugely expensive with no real survivability beyond T5 {as opposed to the four wounds T5 a Slaughtermaster has}  It allows Chariots to receive their saves, doesn't even affect SteamTanks or Hellcannons....

Ultimately, the more I think about it, the more worthless it becomes.  You are putting your only lord on a Monster {which cranks his cost to 600ish points}, with no defensive items barring his 3+ save from being mounted and Blackshard armour.  You're putting him dangerously close to the opposing army, and counting on an item that does a random number of wounds to make up the points cost of both itself, and the now naked prophet.  Keep in mind, a 100 point one-use item doesn't need to make up its own points - it needs to make up its points, in addition to the points that it would have made up every turn it was normally active.  Prophet hit by a cannon?  4+ mask save, boom.  That item just made up the cost of a prophet, an extra level of magic, and all the items on the prophet.  Plus, you have 35 more points to play with.  If you want a close up Prophet, hell, give him the bale taurus, the mask, and the Hammer, and fly him around annihilating things.

Man.  Now I kind of want a combat Prophet.

khedyarl
I've played recently in Saskatoon/Regina, Calgary, Vancouver, and it's been closed all the way.

GottaCon, Mythacon, Octocon, all closed. I play regularly in the Saskatoon league, every game is closed, every tournament run from Saskatoon or Regina, closed, closed. Maybe you have different experiences than me, but closed is common in the West, from my experience.

As I said, I took my information, not just from personal experience, but also from years of internet discussion on the issue. Here are a few examples:
http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?168468-Should-army-lists-be-revealed-before-games&highlight=closed+open+lists
http://warhammer.org.uk/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=80446
http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?256561-Open-vs-Closed-Lists-at-Tournaments
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/281140.page

Every time there has been a poll that I've seen on the issue, it shows similar results to what is shown in the second listed Warseer thread (67 closed, 21 open).

So that's just my personal experience, and the weight of the internet. But who am I, or the internet, to say?

You do realize that for cannon to hit a model behind a monster, it has to kill the monster first, right?

Also, I believe it would effect a Steam Tank because it has a "Chariot-type profile."

Similarly, it would effect Iron Daemons, Doomwheels, Screaming Bells, etc.

Not Hellcannons, but oh well.
15

khedyarl:

Ahh, I’d forgotten a cannon stops if it fails to kill a Monster, or sub-monstrous type.

As for Regina/Saskatoon, I’ve never played there.  I do, however, have a group of friends that play consistently in Calgary, and another in Vancouver.  Both of which are involved in the tournament scene, and neither groups play closed list.  Each player gives a rundown of units/items in the army before the game.  Every tournament I’ve attended in the west has been open, from GW ran, to indy tournaments.  Your experience is different than mine, as I’ve never travelled to Saskatchewan.
Your weight of the internet argument is a fallacy.  A sample size of a hundred people on an internet forum does not a consensus make, specially given that many people on those same forums stated a combination of closed/open {give a rundown at the beginning of the game, lists aren’t shown}.  As I said, barring your apparently unique circumstance in vancouver/Calgary {I just spoke with Brian and Al - both of which told me they’re respective groups are open-list}, my experience is that open is far more common in western Canada.

To sum up the closed-list tournament flask idea:  If your opponent has a Prophet, on a taurus, riding behind a kdaii destroyer, chances are something is up.  

To a point more on schedule, The Steam-tank has been recently errata’d to become an actual chariot, which I’d also forgotten.  Unless a model has the chariot type, however, I don’t see the flask having a leg to stand on.  No Iron Daemon, no Hellcannon, and I believe my Skaven book has been misplaced, but unless they are a warmachine of have the type “chariot”, they aren’t affected - which applies to all big crazy looking contraptions in armylists that don’t have the correct type.

I appreciate that you’re trying to make an item that isn’t well-used and make a role for it, Godhead, but this thread has given you many, many reasons why it is not in ones best interest to take the item, and the one argument to take it involves putting your naked Prophet on a Taurus, flying it behind a Kdaii destroyer {which can still be targetting by magic given true line of sight rules, though you are correct with the cannon ruling} and hopefully killing off a few warmachines and making some panic checks.

If the item were 75 points, it may be viable for the ability to stick it on a Castellan, but as it stands, I don’t see it happening.

EDIT: This post is in no way trying to say that someone is a fool for taking an item. If you want to take a Lamassu, then do it. Make the game fun, and your own, and win with lists that are surprising, and interesting.

16

GodHead:

To a point more on schedule, The Steam-tank has been recently errata'd to become an actual chariot, which I'd also forgotten.  Unless a model has the chariot type, however, I don't see the flask having a leg to stand on.  No Iron Daemon, no Hellcannon, and I believe my Skaven book has been misplaced, but unless they are a warmachine of have the type "chariot", they aren't affected - which applies to all big crazy looking contraptions in armylists that don't have the correct type.

khedyarl
Did you forget the actual rules of the Daemon Flask too?:hat off
All enemy units within 18" not Immune to Psychology or Unbreakable suffer a Panic test. Buildings, structures, Chariots (
The Iron Daemon has a "chariot type profile" and is included. The Doomwheel has a "chariot type profile" and would be included. The Screaming Bell has a "chariot type profile" and would be included. etc. etc.

And I don't think a T5 model with 3+ armour save on a Monstrous Mount (only hit on 5+), is very vulnerable to normal shooting (particularly if he's getting hard cover bonus) or magic.

I think the only real concern about this setup is that I have to be more careful about where and when the Taurus lends help to close combats. I'm about 0% afraid of having the Sorcerer Prophet shot off of it though. I kind of hope enemies do target him with regular shooting and magic. Very few things will reliably kill him, and whatever is targeting him isn't targeting the Destroyer, or my little 10 man MSU units of Chaos Dwarfs.

As an aside, how do people think the Daemon Flask targets units of chariots, such as Tomb Kings chariots or Goblin chariots? My reading is that it does D6 wounds per model (based on the reference to "models with chariot-type profiles"), and could devastate these units - armour saves notwithstanding.

I'm going to be proxying a game against a Vampire Counts player tonight. I'm going to be using:
Level 4 Sorcerer Prophet on Bale Taurus with Daemon Flask and Lore of Hashut;

12 Infernal Guard with Musician and Standard;
12 Infernal Guard with Musician and Standard;
12 Infernal Guard with Musician and Standard;
10 Infernal Guard with Musician and Standard;

10 Infernal Ironsworn with Musician and Standard;
10 Infernal Ironsworn with Musician and Standard;
Hellbound Magma Cannon;
Hellbound Magma Cannon;
Deathshrieker Death Rocket;
Deathshrieker Death Rocket;

K'Daii Destroyer.

I'll let you know how it goes. Here's hoping he takes Corpse Carts!
17

Thommy H:

In fairness, the rules do say it works on units with a “chariot-type profile”, as GodHead says. But given that that’s totally ambiguous, it might as well not be there. GW sometimes words rules a bit vaguely (because they, correctly in my opinion, value a sentence that reads nicely over one that is needlessly legalistic in its language) but that particular nuance is a step too far.

What is a “chariot-type profile” anyway? Does it need to have crew and beasts pulling it? Because a Steam Tank is now a chariot and has nothing pulling it. War machines have split profiles, does it mean that? What about a Warshrine? That’s just a monster, but it’s modelled as a chariot, usually, and would fall victim to the same effects, by fluff. Screaming Bells? Plague Furnaces? They have crew but nothing pulling them. Doomwheels? Are the rats pulling it? The only way “chariot” is defined is by its unit type. That’s what unit types are for. So how can this rule be interpreted? It’s nonsense.

Anyway, the Flask sucks and no one has any useful conclusions to draw about open lists vs. closed lists, and the topic is so boring I think it might lead to the internet being shut down for the good of humanity.

18

GodHead:

Split profiles for models with “crew” that aren’t chariots (already explicitly referenced in the rule) or war machines (already explicitly referenced in the rule).

I don’t see it as being vague or hard to interpret at all.

Doomwheel - yes;
Screaming Bell - yes;
Plague Furnace - yes;
Warshrine - no.

Chariots are defined by unit type. But most (all?) of the “unique” type units that exist in the game have split profiles similar to chariots. Should be FAQed to remove any lack of clarity.

I do wonder how to apply D6 wounds to “structures” though…

19

Thommy H:

Arachnaroks, the *sphinxes, Thundertusks and Stonehorns have split profiles too though - what makes them different from a Screaming Bell, for example? Yes, they’re clearly monsters, but if we’re defining the units it affects not by unit type but by the presence of “chariot-like” characteristics, you can see how it might cause problems.

20

GodHead:

Arachnaroks, the *sphinxes, Thundertusks and Stonehorns have split profiles too though - what makes them different from a Screaming Bell, for example? Yes, they're clearly monsters, but if we're defining the units it affects not by unit type but by the presence of "chariot-like" characteristics, you can see how it might cause problems.

Thommy H
Hit'em all.

Ask Forgeworld why.