It’s not often I think of the warrhammer world as good vs evil - but more as grey. I like the order vs chaos comparisson better.
I played both lizardmen and empire, and they’re not good guys. Lizardmen is trying to fulfill a mission from their gods - keeping some old grand plan on tracks. Something to do with their Gods version of order - is it good? I don’t know. But lizardmen don’t have many good sides in them, no mercy, no compassion - just a cold blooded feeling of duty.
The Empire is not a place of good. If anything it’s a place of lesser evil. Their patron god is a god of war. It’s a place of death and judgment. Witch here, heresy there, maniacs blessed by warrior priest allowed in the army. And if you read any warhammer novels you get the same picture. The empire isn’t good - they’re just trying to mantain there own kind of order.
Chaos Dwarfs fits me perfectly. I havn’t got around to reading the whole wiki yet, only some stuff in the tamurkhan. They are evil in the mind of many. Tamurkhan tells the story of stubborn dwarfs, dwarfs that found a home and refused to leave. They where left for dead by there own race, there numbers dwindled. The God Hashut helped them and sure corrupted them through time.
I see the chaos dwarfs as slaves to a god. Corrupted through history. Filled with fury and hate - but all for a reason.
Allmost all races in warhammer are just trying to survive through they’re own means and from they’re agendas.
I don’t think of myself a player of evil races.
Now PC RPGs is another matter. I allmost allways end up playing a good guy (in mass effect a good guy for the human race), playing dellibrately evil doesn’t feel natural.
I like armies I can relate to, so that’s Dark Elves and Chaos Dwarfs. Generally I like bad guys because they look cooler and do awesome things.
Dwarfs and Lizardmen are the only good armies that appeal to me. Dwarfs because they are tough and stubborn, and can make some fun Lords. Lizardmen because they have a nice mixed list with tough fighters and quick skinks… plus, dinosaurs. I have a feeling my son will eventually have a Lizardmen army… he’s 2 now though.
I play Skaven and have first and foremost. I enjoy their lore and play style and a very characterful army. Nothing to dislike, besides they’re just doing it for themselves.
I picked up the chaos dwarfs ad a project to keep me busy in the hobby and they were a classic and cool army that no longer existed, so I decided to do them.
And then ogres because they’re different. Evil or not they represent a different perspective besides just being the good guys.
Now PC RPGs is another matter. I allmost allways end up playing a good guy (in mass effect a good guy for the human race), playing dellibrately evil doesn't feel natural.
Bloodbeard
Interesting. Because I've noted the same thing for me.
In Warhammer I have mostly evil armies, and 40k exclusively so.
Why exactly escapes me. But I guess the RPGs are more "I'm doing stuff". Though also heavily scripted for "goodness".
As a kid I LOVED the bit of the comical and goofy Orcs/Goblins singing "Where there's a whip, there's a way", see it here:
Yes, singing it as a kid around the house made my parents wonder what the hell was wrong with me, Yes, where there's a whip, there's a way! Perfect! :idea
As a kid I LOVED the bit of the comical and goofy Orcs/Goblins singing "Where there's a whip, there's a way", see it here:
Yes, singing it as a kid around the house made my parents wonder what the hell was wrong with me, Yes, where there's a whip, there's a way! Perfect! :idea
Fuggit Khan
Now my wife thinks I'm strange singing it!
Abecedar
It's just not your wife though... I'd say that's the normal reaction.
As a kid I LOVED the bit of the comical and goofy Orcs/Goblins singing "Where there's a whip, there's a way", see it here:
Yes, singing it as a kid around the house made my parents wonder what the hell was wrong with me, Yes, where there's a whip, there's a way! Perfect! :idea
Fuggit Khan
Now my wife thinks I'm strange singing it!
Abecedar
It's just not your wife though... I'd say that's the normal reaction.
snowblizz
Hahaha! Yes, people will always raise an eyebrow and give an odd look when they hear someone singing "Where there's a whip, there's a way"...but the song is so damn catchy and fits perfectly for Chaos Dwarfs. I'm glad that Bassman and Abecedar enjoy it too :hat off
A question that's bound to create discussion about what is evil.
Generally, would you choose to play bad guys over good and why?
Grimstonefire
I think this is a really interesting question, I don't want to derail the thread though. The general theme of the thread seems to be if your culture doesn't recognize another race as ... worthy ... then how you treat them can't be called evil. Under these rules dark elves are evil because they arbitrarily kill their own kind, Chaos Dwarfs don't tend to kill their own so much and when they do the victim will have made some kind of transgression to 'deserve' it.
I agree evil races tend to have style or ambiance that is more attractive. I love the FW CD models, the GW Dark Eldar models. But at the same time I can see the thematic appeal of the Empire, a meritocracy (mostly) and Dwarfs, stubborn, drunk and honourable trying to resist the forces of Chaos. I see no appeal to Brettonia
When I got into the game a couple of years ago, I was actually quite interested in Ogres. I played 40k long, long ago and I had noticed the Dogs of War Golgfag unit in White Dwarf and though "wouldn’t it be awesome to have an army full of Ogres?"
I had a friend who got me interested in Fantasy a couple of years ago who warned me off of Ogres (bad move considering how dominant they were at that specific time). He had played Ogres in the previous edition and been away from the game for a while, so his experience with the Ogres had been one of, no bueno.
I definitely lean toward evil in games (Orc Death Knight in World of Warcraft, etc), and I’ve struggled to understand why over the years. The short answer is because “good is dumb”. But more specifically, the look of the models tends to be more open and interesting on the evil side. Especially with regards to Chaos, there are so many excellent options for conversions at all levels. Brettonia is fairly interesting itself, but really fairly bland in terms of models. If you’re an excellent painter, then certainly I think they can be great. But really, the army (much like Empire) end up more often than not being very bland. Which is a shame really, I like varied playstyle and there’s not a lot of variety on the Chaos end. Which is what brought me to the Chaos Dwarfs in the first place, that and a bit of old shop nostalgia.
I enjoy bringing the light into the world (and a just punishment to any daemons) with my Grey Knights or Black Templars just as much as I enjoy laying waste to everything with my Chaos Space Marines, Chaos Dwarfs and Vampire Counts. I can always find a good cause for playing either good or evil.
:o
Whoa! In what sense is the Empire even slightly meritocratic??
snowblizz
I haven't read the fluff in a while but if I remember correctly there is a reason they are called ELECTOR counts. Soldiers are professionals. Veterans rise to Greatsword/ captain/ general etc on merit. Yes there is an aristocracy but it isn't as entrenched. If it helps consider it a relative statement
I haven't read the fluff in a while but if I remember correctly there is a reason they are called ELECTOR counts. Soldiers are professionals. Veterans rise to Greatsword/ captain/ general etc on merit. Yes there is an aristocracy but it isn't as entrenched, the limit to joining pistoliers (pre-cursor to knights) is wealth not birth rank
nicque-ta-mare
The people allowed to elect is the most powerful nobles, the counts, and the church of Sigmar and Ulric (and Sigmar's church gets 3 to 1 votes). Not exactly merit based. That doesn't make it a merit based vote however. If you read up on the people who have been Emperors there's plenty of very incompetent ones. The WHFRP book even suggests there's a tendency towards "weak" Emperor's so the Electors can rule more independently. Actually came outright and called it "slips of the system" to allow strong Emperors. At the next level almost all electors are inherited positions, excepting the religious ones and there again there's no guarantee of merit (plenty of evidence to the contrary). Under that again a bunch of nobles with hereditary holdings. That's kinda the opposite of meritocracy.
Pistoliers are mentioned to be young nobles waiting to be inducted as squires. Knightly orders on the other hand do recruit wider, but "some" only recruit nobility. So yes knightly orders seem generally meritocratic in their approach. In general I'll agree on soldiery, but only to a degree. The Empire is essentially feudal. A lot of armies are raised by nobles or they will probably represent a significant party there of. So would tend to be led by them. Now yes an Imperial army could be led by a veteran soldier risen in rank but considering the factionalism of the Empire, the politicking, I'd give a 50/50 odds on someone getting the position due to connections. At least that's how a lot of the background portrays it.
If you want an education you need to be rich to afford the university, mostly nobles can do this. That ties in with above, who'll get the education in military matters for high command? In a feudal society mostly nobles. There's a certain level where practical soldierly experience won't be enough anymore. Can't find anything solid about College of Engineering, but logically since there's no public schooling and I'd say no public funding for education it's not really open for everyone. In the sense that you need to afford to go school. Interestingly it would seem that Colleges of Magic would to a high degree be meritocratic though, since you need "the gift" and that can't really be bought.
Compared to Brettonnia the Empire is certainly more meritocratic, but I'd claim Orcs and Chaos are to a much higher degree meritocratic. You don't last long enough there unless you've got the "merits". But what with the feudalism, corruption and so on I wouldn't exactly describe the Empire as a meritocratic society.
Although the Empire has many feudal elements (landed aristocracy etc) I don’t think it is as truly or ‘essentially’ feudal as you claim but, yes. There are no true meritocracies in the WHFB world but the Empire is the closest. I don’t have the book but a professional army led by a General (not a Prince etc) will be more meritocratic.
Compared to Brettonnia the Empire is certainly more meritocratic, but I’d claim Orcs and Chaos are to a much higher degree meritocratic. You don’t last long enough there unless you’ve got the “merits”. But what with the feudalism, corruption and so on I wouldn’t exactly describe the Empire as a meritocratic society.
snowblizz
I had a similar thought when I wrote my post but I disagree with you. Although Orcs & Chaos leaders do gain those positions on “merits” they are not the merits of the position. Even if they keep those positions on merit, they gain the position as fighters rather than tacticians, stratergists or leaders. I would say the Empire is the only place in the WHFB world where one becomes a captain/ general on the qualities looked for in a good captain/ general.
The good guys seem to have tacky motivations. The Chaos Dwarfs seem to be the only grownups among the bad guys.
Dark Elves: By all rights they should be dying off faster than the High Elves. They have the same low birthrate and keep killing each other over petty things. Malekith doesn’t want anything other than to beat the HEs and he just over extends himself every time. Maybe he shouldn’t pick the same landing spot EVERY TIME.
Warriors of Chaos: Lets attack the Empire over and again! Never mind that their frozen wastelands shouldn’t be able to produce enough food to keep us alive.
Beastmen: Lets attack civilization over and over again. I’m sure if we keep up this minor annoyance thing for long enough they’ll break!
Orcs and Goblins: Lets smash things for no reason!
Skaven: They have crazy high numbers but they can’t take the Empire down after the worst plague in history compounded with civil war?
Vampires: Basically the same thing as above.
Demons: The Slann are the only servants of order that can’t be replaced. The High Elves are maintaining an ongoing spell to keep Chaos at bay. I know! Lets attack the Empire!
I can always find a good cause for playing either good or evil.