[Archive] Dogs of War Army Book Play Test Version 2

Archive [Archive] Wargame News and Discussion
1

BilboBaggins:

We are now on the second round of play testing.

We have taken in comments and play test results and made some changes so please make note of them before making your lists and playing.

The biggest change is that the book has been split into two. If you plan on playing the Dogs of War you should download and print out both files. The main book (Warhammer Armies: Dogs of War) contains the rules for the Dogs of War army and the Basic Heroes, Units and Special Characters for the army. The other book (Warhammer Armies: Regiments of Renown) contains all the Regiments of Renown has the well-known heroic units from the Warhammer World and the armies that can hire them.

Warhammer Armies: Dogs of War (Play Test Version 2)

Warhammer Armies: Regiments of Renown (Play Test)

Please contact us with play test results and comments from opponents during the play test games. We need to know how the army fares and hopefully try out all the units in games of various sizes.

We still need as much data on this army list to make the army balanced as we can against all the current armies, but not over powered. This play test will be for a period of 3 months and all play test results should be emailed to dogsofwar@hotmail.co.uk so we can analyze the information and make any future changes that may be necessary.

2

The Brain:

I don�?Tt understand why you guys are taking the time to do this when there are already rules for Dogs of War. They even have special characters. The only thing they run short of is magic items, which they don�?Tt really need because they can have more characters than any other army.

3

BilboBaggins:

It’s because the rules for the Dogs of War are as outdated as the rules for the Chaos Dwarfs. Did you complain about the Indy GT list for the Chaos Dwarfs?

4

The Brain:

Actually I did, and I still think Ravening Hordes is better for CDs. That being said I play Dogs of War, using the currant rules they are fine. I have held my own against most of the new armies out there and even tabled a Vampire Count, so I don�?Tt see what the problem is. Their special characters rock, the ROR are awesome, and their regular units are kinds cheap when compared to other lists.

5

BilboBaggins:

You may be the only Dogs of War player who hasn’t complained about Pikes and other units being more expensive than their equals in other armies.

6

The Brain:

Pikes don�?Tt really have an equal in any other army except maybe High Elves. Hmmm let me think, strikes first, with 4 ranks, charge with 3, S4 against cav and monsters, at around 9 points per model, YES PLEASE! Pikes are worth every point. Pikes backed up with duelists money every time. A block of 24-30 of Leopold�?Ts Leopards rocks and spits in the face of most units. Also Hot Pot catapult, the best war machine in the game for its points. I�?Tm not saying the list is perfect, but you can�?Tt go rewriting the rules every time you don�?Tt like them.

7

nitroglysarine:

as a related note, i have a unit of 40ish models the alitacian felowship sitting on a shelf.

would anyone like to make me an offer?

8

BilboBaggins:

Pikes don�?Tt really have an equal in any other army except maybe High Elves. Hmmm let me think, strikes first, with 4 ranks, charge with 3, S4 against cav and monsters, at around 9 points per model, YES PLEASE! Pikes are worth every point. Pikes backed up with duelists money every time. A block of 24-30 of Leopold�?Ts Leopards rocks and spits in the face of most units. Also Hot Pot catapult, the best war machine in the game for its points. I�?Tm not saying the list is perfect, but you can�?Tt go rewriting the rules every time you don�?Tt like them.

The Brain
You are again one of the few who use Pikes in a Dogs of War army anymore, most rather put the points in other units. Plus at the original 10 points (GW PDF) they were overpointed by 3 points by other infantry units in the game.
9

Willmark:

I’m of the opinion of what does it hurt? The answer is nothing, the hobby is what you make it and if people want to create alternative rules then by all means I’m for it, YMMV.

10

The Brain:



BilboBaggins
You are again one of the few who use Pikes in a Dogs of War army anymore, most rather put the points in other units. Plus at the original 10 points (GW PDF) they were overpointed by 3 points by other infantry units in the game.

The Brain
    You can get alcatoni fellowship for 9 points a model. The regular pikes at 10 point are a bargain. The average human in empire or bretonian, is 5 to 6 for a footslogger. Considering that the pike fights in two extra ranks, strikes first and gets a strength bonus 10 points is reasonable.
     Most of the DOW players I know have at least two units of pike on the field. Unless you tap into regiments of renown most of the other units are not all that great, except duelists with pistols. Without pikes or deualists, why even play DOW at all. Without those two units you are really just playing an Empire army. If you don't mind I am curious as to what you like to play.

In 2250 I usually go with:
Lords
Belladonna

Heroes
Paymaster
Wizard Lv 2

Core
Leopold�?Ts Leopards (24)
Republican Guard (24)
Crossbow (10)
Crossbow (10)
Crossbow (10)
Voland�?Ts Venerators (10)

Special
Iron Guts (4)

Rare
Cannon
Hot pot

Some times if I can squeeze the point I drop the Ironguts for Golfags Ogres. The list works well, Belladonna rocks and if she gives her gift to Leopold or Voland the get beefy. It has tabled Vampires, Orcs, massacred Empire and Dark Elves. Sold victories against WoC, and High Elves, Dwarfs 50/50. Not too many Beast men in my area, and most of the Daemon players leave that army at home because everyone makes fun of them. I have not played lizards yet though.
11

cornixt:

I’ve emailed this to the address given, but I’ll post it here for you to respond to if you like. I don’t really expect/need a proper response, the questions are more to show how I am confused.

Okay, now this list is something different. The last one was basically the pdf with magic items, this one has some new flavour to it. Some of it is remarkably similar to my own ideas, although mine is a completely different approach. One problem with this new list is that the extra units make it a bit unwieldy. Maybe combine the Elf characters into a single entry, and same for the Dwarfs. I can’t really see the point of the Merchant Prince except for getting loads of “free” banners, which seems like a very odd use. I’m not sure why the Halfling units are split up either, since they are so similar it seems like a weapon option would be best (plus maybe the choice of a type of champion). The script-style font used for the headings and titles is horrible to read!

The RoR units fall into the same problems they always have - most are essentially ordinary units with a hero in them. How many different named pike units do you need? You could dump half of the RoR pretty easily and leave people to use the equivalent unit rules, maybe adding a magic item or academy skill to replace the few unique parts, and it would have next to no effect. Why are the Giants of Albion in the main rules rather than the RoR section?

Finally, I don’t like the renown points system at all. It adds an extra layer of complexity to making an army that is hard to follow and not really all that restrictive for most players anyway.

To end on a positive, it’s nice to see a bit more fluff in the naming of the units to add some feel to it rather than sticking with the generic titles, plus a few new ideas in the way of war machines, although it does feel a lot like a Tilean army that hires mercs rather than a merc army. I can see this fleshing out into something very good with a little more direction.

12

BilboBaggins:

I've emailed this to the address given, but I'll post it here for you to respond to if you like. I don't really expect/need a proper response, the questions are more to show how I am confused.

cornixt
I see if I can give quick answers on the thinking.
Okay, now this list is something different. The last one was basically the pdf with magic items, this one has some new flavour to it. Some of it is remarkably similar to my own ideas, although mine is a completely different approach. One problem with this new list is that the extra units make it a bit unwieldy. Maybe combine the Elf characters into a single entry, and same for the Dwarfs. I can't really see the point of the Merchant Prince except for getting loads of "free" banners, which seems like a very odd use. I'm not sure why the Halfling units are split up either, since they are so similar it seems like a weapon option would be best (plus maybe the choice of a type of champion). The script-style font used for the headings and titles is horrible to read!

cornixt
We are trying out new units to see how they work, some are works in progress and may not make final edition of the book.

You want us to combine the Elf and Dwarf Heroes? Elf magic Caster and fighter and Dwarf fighter and Engineer. I can't see that being helpful.

Merchant Prince can take Banners, extra magic items, more War Academy Abilities and Citizens Militia.

Halflings were split because different points cost for the unit champions (archers with higher BS and spearmen with extra attack). Plus Archers have option to skirmish and scout but the spearmen really shouldn't do either.

I never had anyone complain about the script font before. We'll have to look into it.
The RoR units fall into the same problems they always have - most are essentially ordinary units with a hero in them. How many different named pike units do you need? You could dump half of the RoR pretty easily and leave people to use the equivalent unit rules, maybe adding a magic item or academy skill to replace the few unique parts, and it would have next to no effect. Why are the Giants of Albion in the main rules rather than the RoR section?

cornixt
The pike RoR's we are stuck with because if we drop any there will be calls for our heads, each unit has a group of supporters.

The reason the Giants were in the Main book was two fold.
1. The only army allowed to take the Giants of Albion are the Dogs of War.
2. The person handling the RoR book forgot to include them. :(
Finally, I don't like the renown points system at all. It adds an extra layer of complexity to making an army that is hard to follow and not really all that restrictive for most players anyway.

cornixt
The renown points are getting slightly favourable reviews. Depending on the current round of playtesting/comments we will review it again.
To end on a positive, it's nice to see a bit more fluff in the naming of the units to add some feel to it rather than sticking with the generic titles, plus a few new ideas in the way of war machines, although it does feel a lot like a Tilean army that hires mercs rather than a merc army. I can see this fleshing out into something very good with a little more direction.

cornixt
The co-developers had a lot of debate on the renaming of units, some hated the generic names and others hated the names we changed them to.

It really is a Tilean army, Tilea only hires mercenaries so it's a mercenary army. That is why one Mercenary Captain has to be upgraded to a Paymaster in the Army. The only non-mercenary unit is the Citizens Militia who are in service of the Merchant Princes, that is why you have to have a Prince to put them in the game.

There was some debating about using generic Dogs of War in other armies. Most were for it with some limitations, no missiles for Chaos or must assign a character as paymaster in that army to use them were popular ideas but nothing has been settled on changing the requirements to hire in other armies.
13

AGPO:

I’m with Brain on the subject of pikes. I’ve always been of the opinion that it’s the player who wins or loses, not the list. Yes some new lists turn the game into a dice rolling contest, but thats true for everyone, not just DOW.

I’ll give the list a once over when I’ve got more time, but I presonally think a generic mercenary unit for elves, dwafs, Norse, humans and halflings, accompanied by weapons and skills options is the way forward

14

BilboBaggins:

I'm with Brain on the subject of pikes. I've always been of the opinion that it's the player who wins or loses, not the list. Yes some new lists turn the game into a dice rolling contest, but thats true for everyone, not just DOW.

I'll give the list a once over when I've got more time, but I presonally think a generic mercenary unit for elves, dwafs, Norse, humans and halflings, accompanied by weapons and skills options is the way forward

AGPO
Thanks, even though there were many arguements about including the Non-Human races in the army it was decided that adding them enhanced the feel of the mercenary aspect as well as giving the army a different feel than the other Human armies. We didn't was an Empire or Bretonnian clone.
15

chaos spawn:

I just found out about your project and had a quick view over it.

First of all: I like it! I play DOW since the beginning of 6th ed and I would love to have a fresh, competative army-list.

But there are some things in your armybook that I do not like:

1. Too many Hero choices! Other armybooks have 2 or 3 choices, you have a total of 7! I would reduce this to human heros only, or maybe include 1 standard dwarf hero and 1 Marauder hero to be purchased only if the army has a Dwarf/Marauder unit in it, but not more.

2. Elves: I think Elves don’t belong into a DOW Army. Elves usually don’t fight for money and should not fight side to side with cutthroats like DOW. Fluffwise I do not see why Elves could be part of a DOW army. Arsanil should be the only exception.

3. Where are the Ogres? I think the list should also include standard Ogres.

4. I would remove the Balista from the list. If you read the fluff about the cannons it says that DOW use small cannons that can easily be transportet because DOW tend to be travelling all the time. The galopper-guns are even smaller than standard cannons. A unmovable large war machine does not fit at all, fluff-wise. Also having an unbreakable crew seems rather strange to me. If you want do include some new war machines it should be something smaller or something more maneuverable (maybe a war wagon or some light cannons with a profile like the galopper-guns but without being pulled by a horse). How about including small cannons with ST6 and T6 that are a 2-4-1 rare choice? Maybe you could include (units of) swivel guns that cause 1 Artillery dice of hits with ST 4 with a range of 12"?

5. The Espringal is a fine Idea, however I’m not so fond of it’s profile. Why does it have T4? Seems like a combined profile including crew and warmachine? Why not make it like a small bolt-thrower with seperate stats for crew and Warmachine or, if you prefer handle it like skaven weapon teams: On kav. base with T3.

6. I think the War Academy abilities are a bit too much. For example it seems strange, that a DOW-General can have a “Master Assasin” ability while Dark elves or skaven can not. Special abilities like that are only present in very few army books and I think the DOW Army is not the one that should have such special stuff to this extend. Maybe some of these benefits should be given by magic items?

7. I don’t really like the reknown points system. Isn’t there an easyer (less complex) way of doing this?

Apart from that: Great job, great Ideas, nice Items and good Artwork. :slight_smile:

16

BilboBaggins:

I just found out about your project and had a quick view over it.

First of all: I like it! I play DOW since the beginning of 6th ed and I would love to have a fresh, competative army-list.

But there are some things in your armybook that I do not like:

chaos spawn
Let's go through your list with your qualms and explain why we went this direction with the list. You should also email your thoughts to the email address in the book. Remember, this is a PLAY TEST and not the final version and results of the playtesting and comments from players and opponents will be considered.
1. Too many Hero choices! Other armybooks have 2 or 3 choices, you have a total of 7! I would reduce this to human heros only, or maybe include 1 standard dwarf hero and 1 Marauder hero to be purchased only if the army has a Dwarf/Marauder unit in it, but not more.

chaos spawn
OK, the reason is we have as many hero choices is because of the amount of races allowed in the army. Yes Human (the majority), Dwarf, and Elf heroes have their place in the army and we have limitations on use of Non-Human heroes. Ditching the non-Humans would make the list feel like Empire Light, that is the reason GW stance on the Dogs of War is to SQUAT them.
2. Elves: I think Elves don't belong into a DOW Army. Elves usually don't fight for money and should not fight side to side with cutthroats like DOW. Fluffwise I do not see why Elves could be part of a DOW army. Arsanil should be the only exception.

chaos spawn
This is where I disagree. You are only thinking High Elves, what about disgraced Dark Elves? You forget about the Manflayers. If you don't want Elves in your army then don't put them in your army, just like I don't put a Steam Tank in my Empire army until 3000+ points.
3. Where are the Ogres? I think the list should also include standard Ogres.

chaos spawn
Nope, another disagree. There is a perfectly good Ogre Kingdom book to use for Ogres and copying all of them into the Dogs of War book would make it larger than the book should be in it's final version and GW's lawyers may stamp down on us.
4. I would remove the Balista from the list. If you read the fluff about the cannons it says that DOW use small cannons that can easily be transportet because DOW tend to be travelling all the time. The galopper-guns are even smaller than standard cannons. A unmovable large war machine does not fit at all, fluff-wise. Also having an unbreakable crew seems rather strange to me. If you want do include some new war machines it should be something smaller or something more maneuverable (maybe a war wagon or some light cannons with a profile like the galopper-guns but without being pulled by a horse). How about including small cannons with ST6 and T6 that are a 2-4-1 rare choice? Maybe you could include (units of) swivel guns that cause 1 Artillery dice of hits with ST 4 with a range of 12"?

chaos spawn
Why is it that everyone wants to limit the Dogs of War to roving bands when the fluff in the 5th edition also tells of their courage in defending the fortress of Monte Castello or their constant battles against Skaven in Miragliano. You don't think they would put up War Machines to protect their homes? Adding another quick moving small cannon seemed silly since that role is filled with the Galloper Guns. Units with artillary dice hits at S4 and 12inch range, why when you can get that from a unit of Leadbelchers.
5. The Espringal is a fine Idea, however I'm not so fond of it's profile. Why does it have T4? Seems like a combined profile including crew and warmachine? Why not make it like a small bolt-thrower with seperate stats for crew and Warmachine or, if you prefer handle it like skaven weapon teams: On kav. base with T3.

chaos spawn
We were thinking Jazziels when creating it. But we figured human and dwarf weaponsmiths can make better war machines than a bunch of rats.
6. I think the War Academy abilities are a bit too much. For example it seems strange, that a DOW-General can have a "Master Assasin" ability while Dark elves or skaven can not. Special abilities like that are only present in very few army books and I think the DOW Army is not the one that should have such special stuff to this extend. Maybe some of these benefits should be given by magic items?

chaos spawn
Interesting, since the mercenaries would be the ones who fight the most (since they fight for cash) and would more likely pick up these abilities from their travels.
7. I don't really like the reknown points system. Isn't there an easyer (less complex) way of doing this?

chaos spawn
The renown points were installed to make people think and about what they wanted in thier armies. If they wanted more magic they get less renown points to spend on Regiments of Renown. If they wanted loads of Regiments of Renown then they had to put in human captains and have little magical defense.
Apart from that: Great job, great Ideas, nice Items and good Artwork. :)

chaos spawn
I hope this explains our thinking and remember this is not the final version an things may change in the next play test version.