[Archive] Dummy tactician need help for a tournie. First Battle report

[Bassman]

Bassman:

Hi dude and dudettes,

today I went to Milano’s official GW shop for a game with a friend and the stuff invited me to join a tournie is going to happen May the 30th. I answered I was going to attend with my Chaos Dwarfs just to see the stuff reaction… well, they watched each other for a second in great surprise and, after babbling something about cheesiness of 8 bolt throwers, they welcomed me on board. :hat off

It will be a 2000 points no limits tournie (special characters included ), this is an environment I hate but I decided to give it a go just because I want to show everybody Chaos Dwarfs in a Official GW Tournie! :hashut

My list will be the following one. Due to modelling/fluff and my personal taste it could not be modified.

What I want you to discuss here is: “how can I use to my list to be effective in such a tournie?”

I’m going to play for fun, nothing else, but I do not want to be butchered by adversaries. This is not fun. So I need your help.

My list:

Zharr-Ngrund, sorcerer lord,

IV level, 2 powerstones

2 sorcerers apprentices,

II level, 1 scroll each

Bsb bull centaur

Gaz plus sword of might

20 chaos dwarf warriors, full command, warbanner

14 blunderbusses

14 blunderbusses

25 hobgoblins

24 hobgoblins

20 hobgoblins

5 bolt throwers

20 orcs, full command, double choppas, shield

5 bull centaurs, heavy armor

1 shaker :hashut

I’m not an expert, so I need your help against the Demons/WoC/Vampires/High Elf bonanza I’m going to face… :h

[Baggronor]

Baggronor:

Well, I have to say its brave of you

Assuming the army list cannot be changed, I think it will be an uphill struggle against any real filth opponents but you seem to be well aware of that Everything I say from here on will be with hard tournament lists in mind, against nice armies you should do fine.

First off, the problems I can see:

You have minimum sizes on your key units so cannot afford any casualties. This is my main problem with it. I think you will suffer against gunlines due to lack of a second Earthshaker and long range missile fire, and you don’t have the numbers to weather the storm or the speed to reach the enemy guns. A Thorek gunline, for example, is a no-win situation for you. :hat

You don’t have the combat potential to duke it out with melee armies. The BCs and the Hero are the only real melee hitters and they can’t do enough. So against melee lists you’re going to have to slow them and hope the magic will do enough, which, against the likes of VCs and DoC, it just won’t.

So, what to do. Against VCs and DoC I would say Go for the General. Against Vamps this is at worst likely to get you a minor win, assuming it happens during the first 4 turns. Throw everything at the generals unit and dispel every Invocation he casts to replenish the general’s unit, use scrolls etc and then try and finish him off in combat (hit the unit as hard as possible and make him crumble). Its a slim hope, as he will likely just hop into another unit before you get to him, but I reckon its your best chance. If he has a caster lord in a bunker, this will be exceptionally tricky to achieve. Other than that, bait any Blood Knights, aim for flank charges and try to engage him in multiple combats across the board (VCs work best when they can focus all of their attention on 1 or 2 combats so attack in concert). Pit of Shades is very nice against Varghulfs/Zombies/Skeletons, Fire magic is also good to cancel the regen. Large units of Wraiths will be a nightmare for you

Against DoC, all Bolt Throwers should be squarely aimed at the Greater Daemon, regardless of its type. Against Kairos you should again pick Lore of Shadow and pray for Pit of Shades. With Kairos lists in particular, you need to kill him, he will often turn up with the Blue Scribes (so he gains dice every time you cast a spell) and he will basically nuke your entire army. Grabbing him in combat is also a possibility if he lands too close, Unseen Lurker is your friend. Also the BSB can risk a solo charge to pin him but don’t expect to last long against the aoe spells he will put out. If you get a Bloodthirster/Keeper of Secrets it has to die to the Bolt Throwers before it reaches combat or its game over, its that simple really, you have nothing that can fight him and the Thirsters Magic Resistance means the Sorcerers will likely be wasting their time too. I wouldn’t expect a win against DoC :sad

Against other lists, you should have a decent chance.

Bretonnians should be fun for you, slow him and redirect while zapping away. Same for OnG really.

High Elves will die in droves to the BBs, just a shame you have so few. Shoot down dragons asap, with 5 BTs you should have a decent chance. Same goes for DEs, although they will be much scarier in melee. Fire Magic for the Hydras.

Against WEs, I would sit tight and let him come to you. Don’t let him move any trees. Fire magic is best here, not just for the flammable targets but because of the multiple magic missiles. Let the Hobgoblins fight him first, then BB him when he is visible (nothing is quite as satisfying as obliterating a bunch of those loathsome tree huggers with a BB volley :)). Spread your war machines out so he can’t get to more than 1 at a time.

Against combat Dwarfs (a rarity but they do exist) use the hobgoblins to force him to pursue (from hatred) and pull him out of position. Against a gunline, you’re in trouble as already mentioned.

Against Lizardmen: If you see multiple Engines of the Gods, BT them to death fast. Same goes for Stegadons and Carnosaurs. Other than that, BBs for the skinks, warriors for the Saurus. You want mid-range here (10-24"), where the BBs and magic are most effective.

Empire double STank lists might not be so bad for you. Feed them slaves while shooting them with BTs. If he has Karl Franz on a dragon too, then he is a priority, but don’t forget he is Magic Resistance (3).

Wow thats a long post… hope its useful

[system]

Servius:

I personally would probably drop the orcs for another unit of warriors … Also your army seems really small to me… Probably because I play 2250 normally… Also if your gobs are naked… run them in multiples of 10 or 12 and make the no-mans land a parking lot. (i.e. lots of speed bumps) I would also consider some wolf cav somewhere in the list to give you the ability to march block at some point early on or put the lord on lammasu.

[system]

Alan the evil:

hi bassman

first of all I link my arylits https://discourse.chaos-dwarfs.com/t/10580

why?

because it’s very similar to your.
well, it’s a 2250 arymylis, but if you drop 2nd infantry of CD and musician on slaves units you got it.

main differences are.

Block of CDs is bigger to allowe you to start with a 25 strenght unit.
Sorcerer lord had go gem of gnar for improve your combat result in your 1st big HtH combat wih main unit and save him.

Instead than a big unit of orks there is a little of black orks: this because it’s cheaper, same impact strong and it’s not animouse.

Staff of sorcery: fondamental with VC, warpriests, khemri, spells of enchanted items/arcane and spells casted with caddy… and even for stronger spells! Too much versatile

Other choices are developed into the thread…

good luck for the tournament e sdraiali tutti!!!

[Baggronor]

Baggronor:

I personally would probably drop the orcs for another unit of warriors .. Also your army seems really small to me.. Probably because I play 2250 normally..... Also if your gobs are naked.. run them in multiples of 10 or 12 and make the no-mans land a parking lot. (i.e. lots of speed bumps) I would also consider some wolf cav somewhere in the list to give you the ability to march block at some point early on or put the lord on lammasu.

He says in his post that the list isn't going to change.

[system]

BilboBaggins:

Personally I wouldn’t run less than 21 blunderbuss in a unit. Most armies can bypass the blunderbusses even if you have 2 of them. Remember Blunderbusses CAN move and shoot so may shock your opponent at one point during the game.

At 2K I have 2 Warrior units and one Blunderbuss unit normally. Hobgob archers at units of 10 are good protection against shooting/magic until you get your blunderbusses in possition to kill things. The can also pin prick units with S3 arrows for a couple of rounds. don’t worry about them dying, that is their job and at 50 points a unit let them.

[Bassman]

Bassman:

Thanks everybody for help! This was exactly was a I am looking for :hat

I’m munching your info, do not worry, I just want to give you more info in order to let you help me better.

I told ya I’m not going to change he list, this is partly true, partly not.

Due to modelling and painting I cannot change a lot but something could be changed.

My characters are here to stay BUT  their equipment could be changed.

Do you think their equip is ok? Could be better? Are power stones worth? I should swap them for more scrolls? I’m thinking to drop one power stone in order to get some points here and there to upgrade my warrior unit to 24. :hashut

Wolfriders: I have 10 of them painted and converted (as yu can see in my blog). I do not feel confident to spend 140 points on them (armor, shield and musician, exactly like Alan the Evil use to do).

I’ll elaborate more tonite or tomorrow, sorry. Suggestions on this argument are more than welcome.

Orcs: I hate you all! Everybody wants to drop them for Black orcs You are completely right but have you seen my orc unit in my blog? They are too cute to be left home and my black orcs are too much WIP to be ready in time

I found 20 orcs with double choppas and shield pretty solid and they have D10!

OK, looking forward for more imputs.

Thanks again :hat off

[system]

Alan the evil:

about power stone:
It worths mainly on sorcerer lord because he has go 4 spells, so he probably gets a worth spell - maybe the one you need.
Power stone worth so much that I’m looking for save up points in some way and put one power stone even in sorcerer of level 2: it allowes me to cast once a spell with 4 dice and give the 2 basic dices to sorcerer lord who alredy can cast spells with a lots of dices.

A good way to use sorcerer is this imho:
lord level 4 with gnar, dispel and scroll
sorcerer level 2 with dispel and scroll
sorcerer level one with lore of shade and staff of sorcery

If you put sorcerer lord and BSB into CD unit you can just upgrade them to 22 (and save up 18 worthly point)

hope to be helpfull

[Baggronor]

Baggronor:

even in sorcerer of level 2: it allowes me to cast once a spell with 4 dice and give the 2 basic dices to sorcerer lord who alredy can cast spells with a lots of dices.

This is very true, a power stone on a lv2 means they can potentially go for a high casting spell. Handy if they roll Pit of Shades or Conflag :)

[system]

BilboBaggins:

I don’t take power stones myself, never really felt the need for them when I can get another scroll.

According to the rulebook the only magic item you can can have more than one of in the army is the Dispel Scrolls. So if you have 2 power stones you are breaking the rules according to the rulebook. I know most players will allow you to run multiple power stones.

[Bassman]

Bassman:

I like Alan’s setting and Baggronor seems to agree about the powerstones viability.

Alan’s setting is just 15 points more than mine but looks effective so I decided to give a try.

In another thread I told you what I think about hobgoblins: they are better naked :o than armored. It’s better to have two units of 20 than a single armored one. I prefer 25 than 20. Why? If you kill 5 out of 20 they panic, with just 10 points the killings raise to 7. Killing 7 it’s not so easy and we have the shaker shutting two units (on average) per turn! This means if they want to panic one they shall concentrate at least 2 units on them… if they ignore them… they have to face 25 hobgoblins charging in a couple of turns.

But maybe my list needs a couple of 10 man units to bait and flee… so why not save some points reducing one of them to two 10 hobgobbos?

Zharr-Ngrund list mark 2

Zharr-Ngrund, sorcerer lord,

IV level, powerstone, scroll

Sorcerer apprentice

II level, powerstone, scroll

Sorcerer novice

I level, staff

Bsb bull centaur

Gaz plus sword of might

20 chaos dwarf warriors, full command, warbanner

14 blunderbusses

14 blunderbusses

25 hobgoblins

25 hobgoblins

10 hobgoblins

10 hobgoblins

4 bolt throwers

20 orcs, full command, double choppas, shield

5 bull centaurs, heavy armor

1 shaker

Still have 7 points left… I can drop one hobgoblin unit and a couple from the two main ones to get the fift bolt…

Tomorrow night I’m going to make some playtesting with this list… I’ll give you a battle report. :hat

[system]

Alan the evil:

According to the rulebook the only magic item you can can have more than one of in the army is the Dispel Scrolls. So if you have 2 power stones you are breaking the rules according to the rulebook. I know most players will allow you to run multiple power stones.

In italy we use to play multiple power stones, according with FIGW rules.

[Bassman]

Bassman:

Time for first battle report

Tonite I played with a friend of mine, he told me he had a new army not wanting  to reveal it to me until last. When I got the my local hobby store I found he bought a new army of High Eves! :o

It was a pretty surprise as I used to see him with Vampires, Khemri and Demons. :~

Well he is not the best tactician and new to the army but I was happy to see him giving up before my last 6th turn. I do not remember exactly if it was Napoleon that said “the best general is the one that make the less mistakes”. So I am happy to have exploited every mistake he made

He was bored of combat-magic armies so he tried a list with a lot of shooting and moderate fighting. We played 2000 points no limits so I could test my tournie list.

He had a special character lord, the one with a bow like a bolt thrower, an hero with another funny bow and a scroll caddy. Two units of archers, a large unit of sea guard, 2 bolt throwers, scouts, an eagle, 10 swordmasters and 10 dragon princes.

I know Dragon princes and swordmasters  are nasty guys, so I was looking how to get rid of them before they reach my lines.

Battleground:

Brown: hills

Green: forest

Grey: rocks (impassable terrain)



He deployed one bolt thrower supported by an archer regiment for each hill, dragon princes next to rightmost hill (from my point of view), then sea guard at centre and swordmasters on left flank. His scouts were placed with his lord (special character) behind the hill in the middle.

I tried to deny him the use of rocks and forest for his scouts placing carefully hobgobbos units and refused my left flank placing warriors with orcs on their left side and blunderbusses on the right. The other blunderbusses with a 25 hobgobbos unit secured my right side behind the forest, close to the table border. Bull centaurs with Bsb were placed behind the forest to take cover from shooting.

Refusing my left flank left his bolt thrower, archers and scouts out of the game most of the time, wasting time moving and killing one 10 hobgobbos unit!

Shaker helped me to win the game, he shouted his sea guard, slowed down his dragon princes and let me gain time. In two turns I throwed everything I had against dragon princes and thanks to massed fire and a bit of luck they were wiped out by missile fire and magic. The rest of his army was unscated but I was happy to get rid of the dragons. He was smart to use terrain to protect his swordmasters and they finally ended in combat with my orcs. Due to waagh orcs charged, I casted the spell that reduces armor save and -1 to hit and wound on the swordmasters, They managed to wipe out 2-3 orcs but my champion killed a couple of the elves. The elves lost but passed their leadership test. The two units continued to fight for the entire game butchering each other, every turn swordmasters wiped out 4-5 orcs but due to my precious champion that could fight back and kill 1-2 elves per turn, ranks, outnumber and banner orcs keep the buggers engaged for the entire game, reducing them to just 2. I was satisfied to keep them out of the game.

Thanks to my refused flank his shooting was dispersed and was not able to deal great damag, my warriors were reduced to 15 and hobgoblins meat shields were wiped out. Bulls survived thanks to the cover of the forest form they emerged just in turn three when my rightmost magician (the staff guy) hidden in the blunderbuss unit wiped the right bolt thrower crew with the fireball from death magic. Bulls charged sea guard on the flank helped by the Bsb, so they won by 5 and elves were destroyed. With bolt thrower, a regiment of archers, sea guard, dragon princes, chariot, mage, one hero out and his swordmasters reduced to two he conceded.

About magic:

I choose shadow magic for my lord, I was looking for the lurker and the steed but never used them. I found the 3d6 s1 no armor save very nasty for dragon princes and small units. Elfish T3 really helped, of course.

My level two used metal magic, his spell able to reduce armor save and -1 to hit and wound really helped orcs and bulls in combat.

Level one: Ok, a scroll caddy is not a real opponent but the plus 1 to dispel kept me relaxed all the time and his single missile spell casted 5+, well he destroyed a bolt thrower and panic a regiment of archers�?�. Wow!

Real lesson learnt: use terrain! I always find that terrain could really help us. Everybody expect we play like dwarfs, use hills to place our machines of war and look for open terrain for massed fire. In reality I prefer to hide our machines of war, expecially our precious earthshaker and use terrain for cover. My aim is always to create lanes of fire to dictate enemy movement. I know he shall pass there, so I place my bolt throwers to fire in that place.

We cannot stand a frontal attack, we are too weak, sorry to say, so I like to use terrain to messy enemy advance,  forcing him to split his units.

OK, this battle report is long enough. Hope you enjoyed.

More suggestions are welcome, of course! :hat off

[system]

Ancre:

Whoa nice battle ! Good luck to you in this tournament.

On the gigantic post Baggronor made, I just have something to add on the lizardmen : be wary of the insane number of attacks saurus warriors have. If I remember well, each warrior have two attacks each, and with spears, the second rank can deliver two attacks per warrior too. So if you charge a unit and make no casualties, you will have at least 20 s4 attacks coming back at you (it can be more depending on the number of warriors per rank and if there’s a champion, and can be less if you make casualties). Against Dawi Zharr dwarf warriors though it won’t be as destroying at it can be on other units, seeing how resistant they are (they hit on 4, wound on 4, and you have a 4+ save if I count well) so on 20 attacks you’re counting on 2.5 casualties. But be aware of the numbers of attacks, it can become very surprising.

Oh, and don’t try to engage skinks in combat (even with hobgobs), blunderbuss them, they’ll die in droves. For once that lizardmen are not the bests in short-range fire ! Or magic missile them, it works too, but with lizardmen you might not get magic superiority.

Hope I could help ! And good luck to you.

[Bassman]

Bassman:

Thanks Ancre, I’ve never played with new lizzies so your infos are really helpful.

Next week I’ll try to organize another test match. In the meanwhile discussion goes on…

[system]

Alan the evil:

dragon princes ... were wiped out by missile fire and magic

beware to fire immunity!!
when you play against high elves avoid lore of fire: they have a lots of units immune to fire

[Bassman]

Bassman:

dragon princes ... were wiped out by missile fire and magic

beware to fire immunity!!
when you play against high elves avoid lore of fire: they have a lots of units immune to fire


Alan the evil

I know, that's why I used Death on level one, his first spell is like a fireball but is not a fire attack.
I used metal on level 2, I forgot first spell is a fire based attack :| my mistake but the spell reducing TA and -1 to hit and wound is so cool.
I choose shadow for my sorcerer lord because I was looking for lurker and steed but ended in using the 3d6 s1 no TA spell that is a cheap 6+ to cast and more effective that many people believe ;)

[system]

Da Crusha:

I don't take power stones myself, never really felt the need for them when I can get another scroll.

According to the rulebook the only magic item you can can have more than one of in the army is the Dispel Scrolls. So if you have 2 power stones you are breaking the rules according to the rulebook. I know most players will allow you to run multiple power stones.

BilboBaggins

actually it says" In a similar way to scrolls, power stones are not unique items, but they are prepared by a wizard prior to battle. It is therefore possible for several wizards to carry power stones, and for a wizard to carry more than one, in addition to one other arcane item. -BFSP rulebook pg. 122

[system]

BilboBaggins:

Typical GW concaditing itself.

BRB Page 120 says that no magic item can be carried by more than one model with the exception of SCROLLS.

page 122 says power stones are treated simular to scrolls.

I still don’t use Power Stones, never really needed them.

[system]

Servius:

Nice report Bassman,

On the Powerstone… The Items Description would take presedence over any other rule. Otherwise army special rules such as Undead being only able to march within 12 of the general or 6 of a vampire would be null as the Base rule book states that you may always march unless your within 8" or an enemy or within terrain.