Scion:
Yes, they do have an extremely short range. 15" is just asking to be shot into lots of very small pieces lol :). So anyone stupid enough to move a large unit that close deserves to get it.
Hobgoblyn:
Well, there is the other problem of the way the blunderbusses are designed in those rules as well.
The weapon is in no way effected by the number of guns being used, the formation you are in or the skill of the wielder. You are in no way encouraged to make firing lines and a BS3, 4 or 5 fires the weapons with the same effect.
So you have a situation where so long as you still have at least 5 Chaos Dwarfs in the squad, you can literally wipe out half of any squad of any size within 15" every turn. So unless you are playing against an army that is fearless, killing half the models ought to force them to fail a leadership test and run from the table.
If this wasn’t game-breaking enough, they have been made into the only ranged unit that I know of in the whole game with heavy armor on the models. Effectively a squad of 10 Annilhaters you take may as well be a 6 wound, 5+ save warmachine that hits half of any unit within 15" with S5 attacks… for 120 points. And they are core units on top of this.
So, again, unless you are facing an army with tons of fearless units then all you really need to do is spent 60-70% of your army on these and then maybe a couple Special or a Rare option along with a leader to mop up whatever is left over and your pretty much guaranteed a victory. Sure, a couple of the squads might get taken out by long ranged shooters but anything that gets close should have absolutely no trouble at all killing 4-5x its cost.
There just isn’t any reason to take anything else in this list due to this being so over-the-top abusive. So, I am still left puzzled who exactly wrote this rules and just how little they actually thought about it-- because this is beyond bad.
CheTralfara:
I seriously didn’t understand why the number of shots didn’t simply just equal the number of annihilator models instead of the target unit models…
not only would this have cured the large target single model problem, but would also make so much more sense, considering a 5-man unit shouldn’t be getting off the same ammount of shots as a 20-man unit… (not even fluff can explain that)…
this is not to say I don’t appreciate the indy gt book, and love most of the rest of the rules… but I do think this is in dire need of errata
Disastro:
New CDO member here. I’ve played my beautiful big hats since 4th ed. The Indy GT book is outstanding, but I need some clarification on two points:
1) 10 Annihilators on the top of the Kollosus… May I assume that they form up into two ranks of five on the top, and therefore hit at S4, then reduce to S3 once they’ve lost one of their number; or was that outside the intention of the designers?
2) Per Daemonsmiths: The rules state “The weapon contains a single bound spell, chosen randomly from any of the following Magic Lores…” Obviously, the spell chosen is rolled for “randomly” like any other wizard, but do the rules imply that the lore is ALSO chosen randomly, or is it intended that the player may choose the lore, then roll for the spell “randomly” afterwards?
Bleh… make that three points…
3) Also per Daemonsmiths: please clarify the effects of a Daemonsmith successfully casting “Flaming Sword of Rhuin”… Does he temporarily lose the effects of Cause Fear, Bound Daemon and Arcane Alchemy, as a character is only allowed the effects of one magic weapon at a time, or is this an exception to the normal rule?
Alric:
The "Concentration of Fire" rule hasn't been in effect since 5th ed. It is long since gone.
Border Reiver
we tried out a version that had concentration of fire type rules, and the testers found it too powerful for their tastes.I tried this one time in another thread , but they just couldn't understand that the old "concentrated fire" rule is just an application of the basic rules for shooting.
mattbird
It is quite puzzling to me when some players say they cant resolve shooting at a single target with blunderbusses , when all they have to do is go to the basic rules for shooting. [/b]
The only explanation I have ever had to make has been for the strength of the attack which is explained in the rules for blunderbusses that it comes from the ability of additional models being able to shoot as though they are in the front rank.
Regardless of what anyone else says , the old "concentrated fire " rule is merely an application of the basic rules for shooting which are covered in every edition of the Warhammer rule book ,
Gar Shadowfame:
- No they shoot with S3, as there is no mention about them being in ranks.
2) Pick the lore (fire, death,shadow,metal) then roll for a spell, note that you can always change it to first spell (as wizards)
3) “Flaming sword…” gives the bearer “magical attacks” although it is disputable if it replaces the weapon or not, you can easily assume it does not and your opponent can easily assume it does. If he will keep disagreeing, roll a dice or ask referee on tourney.
Thommy H:
I tried this one time in another thread , but they just couldn't understand that the old "concentrated fire" rule is just an application of the basic rules for shooting.It's not that people don't understand how to use it - it's just that it doesn't apply in the particular case of blunderbusses. It's like how the rules for great weapons are very simple, but a model not armed with one still doesn't get to use them.
It is quite puzzling to me when some players say they cant resolve shooting at a single target with blunderbusses , when all they have to do is go to the basic rules for shooting.
The only explanation I have ever had to make has been for the strength of the attack which is explained in the rules for blunderbusses that it comes from the ability of additional models being able to shoot as though they are in the front rank.
Regardless what anyone else says , the old "concentrated fire " rule is merely an application of the basic rules for shooting which are covered in every edition of the Warhammer rule book , anyone who says different doesn't understand the basics of miniature warfare gaming.
Alric
Alric:
TROLLING NON SEQITURI tried this one time in another thread , but they just couldn't understand that the old "concentrated fire" rule is just an application of the basic rules for shooting.It's not that people don't understand how to use it - it's just that it doesn't apply in the particular case of blunderbusses. It's like how the rules for great weapons are very simple, but a model not armed with one still doesn't get to use them.
It is quite puzzling to me when some players say they cant resolve shooting at a single target with blunderbusses , when all they have to do is go to the basic rules for shooting.
The only explanation I have ever had to make has been for the strength of the attack which is explained in the rules for blunderbusses that it comes from the ability of additional models being able to shoot as though they are in the front rank.
Regardless what anyone else says , the old "concentrated fire " rule is merely an application of the basic rules for shooting which are covered in every edition of the Warhammer rule book , anyone who says different doesn't understand the basics of miniature warfare gaming.
Alric
Thommy H
Most Warhammer player know that the blunderbuss is a shooting weapon, and thus the rules for shooting do apply. Your statement is a clear use of a non sequitur (a statement ,as a response, that does not follow logically from or is not clearly related to anything previously said) as the rules for great weapons have nothing to do with the shooting rules or shooting weapons.
Alric:
TROLLING NON SEQUITURIt's not that people don't understand how to use it - it's just that it doesn't apply in the particular case of blunderbusses. It's like how the rules for great weapons are very simple, but a model not armed with one still doesn't get to use them.
I tried this one time in another thread , but they just couldn't understand that the old "concentrated fire" rule is just an application of the basic rules for shooting.
It is quite puzzling to me when some players say they cant resolve shooting at a single target with blunderbusses , when all they have to do is go to the basic rules for shooting.
The only explanation I have ever had to make has been for the strength of the attack which is explained in the rules for blunderbusses that it comes from the ability of additional models being able to shoot as though they are in the front rank.
Regardless what anyone else says , the old "concentrated fire " rule is merely an application of the basic rules for shooting which are covered in every edition of the Warhammer rule book , anyone who says different doesn't understand the basics of miniature warfare gaming.
Alric
Thommy H
Most Warhammer players know that the blunderbuss is a shooting weapon, and thus the rules for shooting do apply. Your statement is a false analogy , its false because its a clear use of a non sequitur (a statement ,as a response, that does not follow logically from or is not clearly related to anything previously said) as the rules for great weapons have nothing to do with the shooting rules or shooting weapons.
Thommy H:
That would be an analogy, Alric. It’s when someone uses something seemingly unrelated to demonstrate a point. Just because blunderbusses are a missile weapon doesn’t mean that they can randomly use the normal shooting rules. Can a cannon opt to fire the same way as a bow?
And for the five-hundredth time: just because someone disagrees with you consistently doesn’t mean they’re trolling you. You could just be wrong a lot of the time.
Grimstonefire:
To solve this dispute, what I would like to see is this:
Anyone with any questions to do with the Indy list, either pm them to me and I will compile a list for mattbird/ kev, or pm directly to him.
It doesn’t make a lot of sense for us to be the ones discussing the solution for things as we didn’t write it.
Then eventually Matt can put together a FAQ/ errata thread and we can sticky it in the rules section.
Alric:
That would be an analogy, Alric. It's when someone uses something seemingly unrelated to demonstrate a point. Just because blunderbusses are a missile weapon doesn't mean that they can randomly use the normal shooting rules. Can a cannon opt to fire the same way as a bow?Except that you are the one that is wrong.You were using a really bad false analogy.
And for the five-hundredth time: just because someone disagrees with you consistently doesn't mean they're trolling you. You could just be wrong a lot of the time.
Thommy H
The Blunderbuss is a missile weapon used in the shooting phase, can use the basic rules for shooting and there is nothing random about that.
Can a cannon opt to fire the same way as a bow?Another false analogy , we all know the cannon is a war machine and a bow (or blunderbuss) is a hand held missile weapon not a war machine.
Thommy H
mattbird:
Hi, here you go:
1 and 2 are correct as below
3) casting flaming sword does not replace the effects of a daemon weapon. 
we will have an official FAQ on the book at warhammerusa.com, which is the new semi-official “home” of the book, now that we know GW legal is cool with the book*.
* don’t ask me to clarify that in a public forum. thanks. 
1) No they shoot with S3, as there is no mention about them being in ranks.
2) Pick the lore (fire, death,shadow,metal) then roll for a spell, note that you can always change it to first spell (as wizards)
3) “Flaming sword…” gives the bearer “magical attacks” although it is disputable if it replaces the weapon or not, you can easily assume it does not and your opponent can easily assume it does. If he will keep disagreeing, roll a dice or ask referee on tourney.
Gar Shadowfame
dncswlf:
Hey, while we are on the subject of the Indy GT rules… why is there no level 1 or level 2 wizard/sorcerer available? anyone know?
mattbird:
the daemonsmith is in there as the “sorta” hero level wizard. With all the different character options, we wanted to try to cut back where we could, so a basic level 1/2 wizard got the ax.
Thommy H:
The Blunderbuss is a missile weapon used in the shooting phase, can use the basic rules for shooting.No it can't. Why would you think that?
dncswlf:
ok, thanks!
This message was automatically appended because it was too short.
Alric:
No it can't. Why would you think that?The Blunderbuss is a missile weapon used in the shooting phase, can use the basic rules for shooting.
Thommy H
ANYONE who says different doesn't understand the basics of miniature warfare gaming.
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Thommy H:
No, it has to use its own rules. If you had a bow with a special rule that allowed it to hit at Strength 4, you couldn’t opt to fire it at Strength 3 like a regular bow - you’d have to use its rules instead. It’s not a choice. Like Dwarf hanguns: you can’t treat them as regular handguns, or Ensorcelled Weapons on Chaos Knights: you can’t “opt out” of the +1 Strength and use them as regular hand weapons. I mean, with blunderbusses there could be some advantage to firing them like a normal missile weapon, but that doesn’t mean you can.
As a hypothetical example: if you had a bow (again) that shot at Strength 2 to represent it being smaller or weaker than normal, you wouldn’t be allowed to use the regular bow profile, would you?
mattbird:
well, first off, the intention is that they can only fire as a unit, as described in the book.
If you want to go by RAW, the rules in the book explain how the blunderbusses work pretty clearly, I thought. “Instead of firing individually…” is in there, which to me eliminates the possibility of having the option to fire them individually as a normal missile unit would.
Then it goes on to state exactly how the unit fires " A unit of Annihilators fires it’s blunderbusses as follows:"
Nowhere under that section does it say you may choose to fire them any other way besides what that section indicates. Just because the rules do not explicitly say you cannot do something, does not mean you can.
If the above logic is flawed, please let me know, and we will include a further clarification in the FAQ. But this question has never arisen before…
There are other missile units in the game that do not follow the rules for archers, etc. Ratling guns and Salamanders (or whatever they are called now) come to mind as 2, but I’m sure there are more.
thanks
Matt
No it can’t. Why would you think that?The Blunderbuss is a missile weapon used in the shooting phase, can use the basic rules for shooting.
Thommy H
ANYONE who says different doesn’t understand the basics of miniature warfare gaming.
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Alric