zobo1942:
Hello,
Looking at the ongoing ‘Finecast Disaster’ that Games Workshop has created for itself, along with the price increase, I can’t help but think that there is a HUGE opportunity for other games companies to jump in and grab a massive share of GW’s customer base.
There are a lot of really great companies - most really, really small, that produce amazing miniatures. There are also larger companies that seem to have great production capabilities, but inconsistent imagery and sculpt quality.
It seems to me that these different companies could join forces or ‘strategically align’ to become a really powerful force in the gaming marketplace.
What do you think?
(ps: I’m not taking sides here - I’m just curious as to what the opinions of other game players would be)
Grimstonefire:
How would they do this?
They are not interested in working together.
What Mantic really needs is an art director to plan their range for years to come. Imo their models, whilst well made, are not consistently good because they are not designed as well as they could be.
Thommy H:
They are not interested in working together.
Who isn't? No names have been named...
There was talk in another thread about Rendra (I think?), who do all the plastics for Mantic and the Perrys maybe formally joining forces with Mantic in the same way that Citadel joined with GW back in the day. And Hasslefree already sell some stuff through Mantic. With the new sci-fi range that Mantic are doing too, there would seem to be even more scope for absorbing the talents of other individuals. I think someone floated the idea on Frothers of Mantic making loads of cheap plastic sci-fi figures while Kev made nice metal characters.
Baggronor:
It seems to me that these different companies could join forces or 'strategically align' to become a really powerful force in the gaming marketplace.
How would they join forces? You mean create miniature ranges that are joint-owned or some such? Like a Hasslefree vs Heresy boxed game? ;) Sounds fun lol, like Marvel vs DC only less spandex.
In all seriousness though, I think any kind of coherent behaviour would be very difficult to do, not least because a lot of them are small because that's the way they like it - they like the total control. I know I do.
I know there's a lot of crisis threads on the net but the only finecast mini I've actually seen with my own eyes was my mate's Gyrocopter - which was fine. Really nice detail actually. Wouldn't leave it out in the sun though...
Grimstonefire:
Can you imagine the legal wrangling that would go on to create a game/miniature range that spanned all the big competitors to
become a really powerful force in the gaming marketplace
It’s just not going to happen. The only way it would happen would be if say mantic for instance hired the likes of the perrys, kev white and felix paniqua to do freelance work and create a huge range.
But that would cost a lot more money than they have, and they’re the only competing company that seems interested in creating a large gaming system. Everyone else is either small games or models without rules.
Edit. Something else to consider is that in terms of the variety and number of “finecast” models, there are
already hundreds of models out there that are equally as well sculpted. They are just spread over dozens of companies.
Thommy H:
The only way it would happen would be if say mantic for instance hired the likes of the perrys, kev white and felix paniqua to do freelance work and create a huge range.
I don't think anyone was suggesting anything else, were they?
And "legal wrangling"? Why? Companies merge all the time. It's not some completely wacked out idea or something! Andy Foster could, for example, decide to sell Heresy and all the rights to the moulds and concepts to Mantic, on the condition that they hire him or give him autonomy to still do his stuff for them or whatever. It's a bad example (I don't think Andy would sell Heresy for a second...) but it's not some sort of unimaginable, fantastical scenario.
Whether the backlash from Finecast is likely to be the impetus for something like that happening is another debate altogether, of course.
Grimstonefire:
Well, Zobo said ‘join forces or ‘strategically align’’, which Imo would not work one company buying out another.
Most of the people they would need would only accept freelance I’m guessing. Mantic would need some serious financial muscle to hire them full time, which is what it would take to become a real powerhouse.
Still, it doesn’t all need to be big name sculptors… Inspired by this thread I just sent mantic an email asking if they want freelance sculptors as I’d work for them! 
Edit. Legal wranglings because their sculptors couldn’t take royalties for their work as the GW sculptors did in the early days. It would have to be freelance contract or full time in house. No corporate merges.
zobo1942:
Fair enough.
I’ve read so many threads/posts saying ‘OMG I’m done with GW…’ that I thought that it may be more than just a few isolated unhappy people - and I know that after 8th edition, it seemed like lots of people ‘jumped ship’ as well. Or, a lot of people talked about it, anyway.
Regarding people ‘not being interested in working together’, I was unaware of that - and part of me wonders if these people, given the right plan, might decide that ‘toiling in obscurity’, might be getting a bit boring, regardless of keeping artistic integrity and control. Why not see some more success (ie. ‘sell out’) by becoming part owners in a joint venture?
Regarding ‘how they would do this’ - the companies interested would form another company where the people involved would all become stakeholders. They come up with a plan to market the miniatures/gaming materials, etc… that utilizes the strengths of each firm involved, and then it’s off to market. That is (obviously) the REALLY short version, but there it is.
As I said, it just seems that there is an opportunity, that’s all. Internet bitching might be blowing the finecast thing totally blown out of proportion, and all the people (again, who spent all their time ranting on-line) who (apparently) decided to get out of playing 8th edition Warhammer might just be spouting off, but hey.
Just seems like if half the whining I’ve heard is true, there’s an opportunity for some people could become a lot more successful than they are already.
Baggronor:
they're the only competing company that seems interested in creating a large gaming system.
PP? AoW? Crocodile Games? They all have their own systems. I intend to create one too, I'm just doing it really really really slowly. And yeah, none of those or anything I do will be as big as Warhammer, but to get that big you need to relinquish the creative control, which I suspect is what the small places all care about the most.
The biggest plus of all these tiny, independent companies is that if Kev White or Andy Foster wants to do some freelancing, they can just do it - they don't have a lawyer or a board telling them what is ok and what isn't. I really like that about this industry. People can just turn up and do stuff, its great.
Thommy H:
Well, Zobo said 'join forces or 'strategically align'', which Imo would not work one company buying out another.
Not all takeovers are hostile. That's why "hostile takeover" has it's own phrase. Sometimes companies just merge if they want to.
I intend to create one too, I'm just doing it really really really slowly.
Hey, you know where my inbox is if you need help with anything ;P
Grimstonefire:
I think it would be a golden opportunity if GW left things unchanged. But if sales plummet they will be spending a lot of time and money sorting it out.
@Bagronnor
Yes, I was just thinking I had forgotten PP. They and mantic are the only ones I know anything about.
AOW is a small skirmish game afaik.
@Thommy.
Using GW as an example in this case, they insist that their sculptors cannot work for competition (Perry’s being the one exception). For say mantic to “merge” with hasslefree either they stop kev selling any other models, or they accept that he will keep his store and devote most (if not all) of his time to mantic.
Why would either of these be in his interest, when he can make a lot more money as a freelancer? It’s why I can’t see any company rising to take over others any time soon. They just don’t have the funds.
Much cheaper to hire people like me to grow their range than to buy into other companies or merge.
Having said that… I was just thinking about the perry’s model range that mantic were thinking of using… Mantic could just agree with other companies to absorb their models into their range. But not merge. That would be a very quick way to bolt on armies.
fonejaker:
guy id just like to post one of my post on this thread that i posted on the other finecast thread
As promised , here is the evidence of my experiment
The left is a piece of finecast resin left inside all day, to the right is a piece of finecast resin left out in the sun for 10hours, at about 24c
i think i can confirm,
finecast does warp in the sun/warm weather
fonejaker
This is just to prove the rumours about melting resin are ture
Grimstonefire:
I had a look at Crocodile games Baggronor.
That company would be a classic example of what could happen if 2 companies decided to join forces.
Mantic would write rules for all the crocodile games models they wanted to include and crocodile games would pay mantic a large annual licensing fee for including them in their range. In return, crocodile games would hopefully get a big boost in sales.
It could happen, but imo it won’t.
Thommy H:
Crocodile already do their own games, but their release rate is just incredibly glacial, I think. That’s why hardly anyone has heard of them these days - they were quite a bit player a few years ago. Pretty much at the same level Privateer Press were, even. It’s actually owned by Chris Fitzpatrick, I think - the guy who did so much of GW’s current Dark Elf range and almost all of the old Dark Eldar. Good sculptor, except for the weirdly angular faces. Although he also did Lucrezzia Belladonna, which is one of GW’s best figures ever.
Thorne:
Ah the legendary Lucrezzia Belladonna figure shes one of the models I lamented never managing to get a hold of one. Truly a epic figure. But I personally think you could look at it in another angle mantic seam to have no problem at all you using another company’s figures in there games in fact they encourage it to a extent even encouraging you to come up with fan made rules and army lists but with so many ex GW staff working in areas that overlap I can see mantic and warlord games having a very close relationship in the future with each other and also rendra plastics too. I can see them working under the same umbrella not to far away.
cornixt:
I think it might work for distribution, especially for companies in different parts of the world. An American firm churns out their own models plus those under license from a European company, and vice versa. Each keeps creative control and makes a little money from selling stuff they didn’t make, without the headache of international shipping. A lot of big companies do it under the table, so you don’t actually know that half the stuff they sell is just a premade thing from another company, but the other company is free to sell it as they like still with their own label on it.
Another way is for several small companies to invest in setting up a combined company that ‘buys’ the models and sells them. Each company owns a portion of the new company and it has a lot more selling power than the individual companies do.
Zanthrax:
I am a huge crocodile fan and use their Heru dudes as characters and tomb guard in my tomb kings army.
Z
nitroglysarine:
AS a side thing, Mantic has just announced their Future miniatures ‘warpath’
I’m guessing this might have some similar aspect to maybe 40k?