[Archive] Full Armylist

Infinitum:

Just looking for some feedback on the Armylist I’m currently working on. The “feel” for the army as I envision it is an aggressive steampunk one where the entire army has a “machine” sort of inevitability hanging over it. Note that I haven’t added point costs yet as I have yet to playtest it thouroughly. These are merely concepts (some of which are borrowed from other sources). So far I’ve listed special rules, the CD armoury, Arcane Machination upgrades, a complete armylist and a bestiary for things I probably have to explain. Enjoy! (Also feedback regarding design and/or point costs are appreciated).

NOTE: I’ve graciously removed the Hobbo Chieftains, Great Taurus, Earthshaker, Bolt Thrower and changed the rules for Death Rockets (now part of Rocket Teams). You want to add them again - you provide the rules. Thank you :).

EDITS: * Changed the Untrustworthy/Ignore Hobgoblin Panic wording courtesy of duktu, it now refers to Hobgoblins instead of Untrustworty units.

����������* Changed the Icarii’s Heavy Armour to a Metallic Hide save.

����������* Added the Lammasu to the bestiary

����������* Added Characters other than the Arcane Engineer to the Bestiary.

����������* Added the Thouroughly Subdued rule to the Hobbos; no bickering on the job for you! Point cost upped to 3 to compensate.

����������* Finished the Bestiary. Yay me.

����������* Added Ziggurat Guard. The hole in the Special section is glaring and the lack of Elites may be damaging the list. Should they have Hatred? Being bitter with age mirrors Longbeards turning stoic nicely but a potential WS5 with re-roll S5 fighting in 2 ranks unit when charged is nasty. Of course if the enemy unit survives they will become significantly softer in consecutive turns of combat so why not? Also it justifies Immortals ITP as being more disciplined fighters.

����������* Reducing the Flying movement of the icarii to 15’’, having an effective range of 32’’ with no moving or long range penalties is excessive come to think of it. Thanks again to Ductu for point�ng this out.

����������* Changed Ignore Hobgoblin Panic to Insignificant.

����������* Made Sneaky Gits a 0-1 core choice instead of a special one.

����������* Set point costs for everything, tweaked the rules for Constructs and Hobgoblin Khans. Added Pistols as an option for some charcters. Tweaked the Black Heart item. List essentially completed.

����������* Added the Lore of Hashut. I’ve yet to set difficulty costs for the spells though.��

Edit: Added the Lore of Hashut.

����������Set casting costs for the lore of Hashut

����������
Removed the Ziggurat Guard, upped the Kollossus starting wounds to 8(!), removed Daemonblood Infusion, added Reinforced Armour, upped the point costs for Lammasu and Mechanical Monstrosities. Almost there.

To Do: Add magic gizmos, hopefully find people wiling to playtest. Hobgoblin contingency with Hero and Special Choice Hobhound packs & Bolt Throwers maybe? Input needed!

Chaos Dwarf Special Rules

Insignificant

All non-Hobgoblin units ignores Panic caused by Hobgoblin units.

Thouroughly Subdued

The Hobbos know what fate awaits those who bicker at the job at hand… unlike other greenskins, Hobgoblins are not subject to animosity.

Untrustworthy

There may never be more units of Hobgoblins in your army than there are units of Blunderbussers, Warriors and Immortals. Hobgoblin units doesn’t count towards your minimum core units. In addition, non-Hobgoblin characters may never join a Hobgoblin unit. Hobgoblin units are Asterixed () in the armylist.

Relentless

All units except Hobgoblins and Lumbering Units may march as normal even if there are an enemy model within 8".

Short of Statue

All units of Blunderbusses, Warriors, Immortals, Rocketeers and Icarii who for some reason are prohibited from flying as well as all Chaos Dwarf characters except Bull Centaur Sentinels and Arcane Engineers wearing Daemonfused Armour flee and pursue 2d6-1’’.

Daemonic Constructs

At the beginning of your movement phase before charges are declared roll 2d6. If there is an enemy unit within the Constructs line of sight and within the amount of inches rolled by the dice then it will charge that unit if possible. If it is not possible then it must instead move as quickly towards it as possible if able to. If there are multiple eney units within the range indicated by the dice the Construct wil attempt to charge the closest legal target. If there are multiple units the same distance from the construct who are legal target then randomize which one the construct will attempt to charge.

In addition, if all the Constructs Crew/Riders are killed then it will go on a Rampage; at the beginning of the Chaos Dwarf movement phase it will charge the closest unit within it’s line of sight (even friendly units). The charged unit will fight back as normal. In addition, if there are no units within its charge range then it will move as quickly as possible towards the closest unit in its line of sight. If there are no units in its line of sight then it will allocate part of its movement points in order to turn to face the closest unit on the tabletop, after it will use the remainder of its move to move towards that unit. The construct is considered an enemy unit for shooting & combat purposes, although victory points will only be awarded to the opponent if the construct is actually destroyed.

A Daemonic Construct must always pursue enemy units broken in combat.

A Daemonic Construct whos rider or crewmen are slain will suffer from Daemonic Instability for the rest of the battle.

Daemonic Constructs are Unbreakable.

Daemonic Constructs have a 5+ ward save versus non-magical attacks.

All close combat attacks made by Daemonic Constructs count as magical attacks.

Symbiotic Constructs

At the beginning of each of your turns each unit or characters being symbiotic constructs must pass a leadership test or be forced to charge the closest enemy unit within 2d6" within its line of sight. If it cannot charge that unit for whatever reason it will instead move as quickly as possible towards it. Also it must pursue enemy units broken in close combat until the beginning of the Chaos Dwarf player’s next turn.

All close combat attacks made by Symbiotic Constructs counts as magical attacks.

Lumbering

A Lumbering unit may not march.

Metallic Hide / Stone Skin

Both of these counts as a Scaly Skin armour save for all intents and purposes.

Chaos Dwarf Armory

Blunderbuss

Ranged Weapon

Range 12"

Strength 4 with -2 AS modifier

Doesn’t receive -1 to hit penalties for long range or moving and shooting.

Glaive

Requires 2 hands

Fight in 2 ranks except when charging

+1 Strength first round of combat

Obsidian Armour

5+ Armour Save

-1 to hit penalty for ranged weapons versus model (doesn’t affect joined unit or mount)

Magic resistance (1) (doesn’t affect joined unit or mount)

Daemonfused Armour

5+ Armour Save

Character becomes a Symbiotic Construct, adds +2M +2S +1A to its stats and may choose Arcane Machinations as part of its magic item allowance. The character may still cast spells as normal.

model on foot only

(Note that whilst it technially is a suit of mundane armour, it still doesn’t allow High Sorcerers to buy magical armour)

Arcane Machinations

Reinforced Armour - 15 points

The model’s Metallic Hide save increases to 3+. May not be taken by characters wearing Daemonfused Armour.

Warpstone Core - 15 points

May be activated at the beginning of either players movement phase.

When activated, model adds +1M +1S +1A to its stats until end of turn.

Model loses 1 wound with no save of any kind allowed.

Extended Crew Platform - Kollossus only - 25 points

Model has 2 extra Chaos Dwarf crewmen with hand weapons and heavy armour.

Hellfire Incinerator - 25 Points[/i]

Model has a S3 -1 Armour Save modifier Breath Weapon.

Black Heart - Daemonfused armour only - 25 points[/i]

When slain, place the small blast template over the model. Models fully covered by the template are affected automaticly, those partially covered are affected on a roll of 4+ on a d6. Models affected take a S6 hit.

Shattering Limbs - 25 points[/i]

The model has the Killing Blow special rule and may not wear any magical weapon.

Meatgrinder - 25 points[/i]

Model causes d3 impact hits resolved at its base strength. May not be taken by characters wearing Daemonfused Armour.

Abyss Gun - Kollossus only - 30 points[/i]

Treated exactly as the smaller cannon described in the WHFB rulebook with the following exceptions:

Hits are resolved at S5 with a -2 AS moifier

Maximium guessing range is 36"

On a misfire the cannot doesn’t fire this turn. Also roll a d6; on a roll of 1-3 it jammed and may be fired normally the next turn, on a roll of 4-5 it had a severe malfunction and may not be fired again for the remainder of the game. On a roll of 6 it explodes, taking most of the Kollossus head with it. It may not be fired again for the remainder of the game, and in addition the Kollossus itself takes d3 wounds (no saves allowed).

Lore of Hashut

Gaze of Destruction[/i] 5+

Gaze of Destruction is a Magic Missile[/i] with a maximum range of 12’’. The target takes 1d6 S4 hits. In addition, any unit suffering casualties from Gaze of Destruction must immediatly pass a LD test or flee directly away from the caster. Units that are immune to Panic[/i] are not affected by this secondary effect.

Blessing of the Furnace - Remains in play[/i] 6+

May be cast on the sorcerer himself and any unit he has joined or a friendly unit within 18’’ of and visible to the sorcerer. The units ranged and close combat attacks counts as Magical[/i] and Flaming[/i]. In addition the unit may re-roll any failed rolls to wound using ranged or close combat attacks. Magic Weapons are not affected by this spell. May be cast on a unit engaged in Close Combat. This spell lasts until disspelled by the opponent, the sorcerer attempts to cast another spell, is slain or chooses to end it (which he may do at any time).

Cloud of Ash - Remains in play[/i] 7+

May be cast on an enemy unit not engaged in close combat within 24" of and visible to the sorcerer. The unit halves its movement and ballistic skill scores for the duration of the spell. This spell lasts until disspelled by the opponent, the sorcerer attempts to cast another spell, is slain or otherwise chooses to end it (which he may do at any time). In addition, the spell automaticly ends if the affected unit enters close combat.

Unholy Toil[/i] 8+

May be cast on any unit within 24" and in line of sight of the sorcerer except his own. The affected units take 1d6 S4 hits randomized as per shooting and immediatly moves 1d6’’ directly forward. If this brings it into contact with an enemy unit then it counts as charging[/i] that unit. The charged unit may choose a charge reaction as normal.

Petrification - Remains in Play[/i] 10+

Choose an enemy model in base contact with the sorcerer. That model receives a 5+ special Scaly Skin armour save (that may be combined with other armour and/or Scaly Skin as normal) and immediatly detracts 1d6 from its Movement, Initiative and Attack scores. A model with 0 or lower Initiative always strikes last in close combat, regardless of other special rules or weapon modifiers. A model with 0 or lower movement has completely turned to stone an is immideatly slain. This spell lasts until disspelled by the opponent, the sorcerer attempts to cast another spell, is slain or chooses to end it (which he may do at any time).

Eruption[/i] 12+

Choose a spot within 24’’ of the sorcerer and within his line of sight. Place the Large Template directly over this spot and then move it 1d6" in a random direction determined by the scatter die. The template may not be placed so that friendly units or units engaged in close combat are covered by it, although it may scatter into such units. Models that are fully covered by the template take a S6 hit, models that are partially covered by the template take a S4 hit on the roll of 4+ on a d6. All hits caused by eruption counts as flaming[/i].

Armylist

Lords

Dictator

Sorcerer Lord

Heroes

Despot

Bull Centaur Sentinel (Uses up 2 Hero Choices)

Sorcerer

Arcane Engineer

Mounts

Lammasu

Mechanical Monstrosity

Core

Blunderbussers

Warriors

Hobgoblins

Hobgoblin Wolfriders

0-1 Sneaky Gits

Special

0-1 Icarii

Infernals

0+ Immortals

Rocket Teams

Rare

Hellcannon (1 rare slot)

Kollossus

0-1 Bull Centaurs

Bestiary

Dictator - 135 points/model

Dictator M3 WS7 BS4 S4 T5 W3 I4 A4 LD10


Hand Weapon

May wield a Great Weapon (+6 points), a pistol (+10 points) and/or an Additional Hand Weapon (+6 points)

May equip a Blunderbuss (+20 points)

May wear Heavy Armour (+6 points) or Obsidian Armour (+10 points)

May wear a Shield (+3 points)

* May choose up to 100 points of Magic items taken from the common and/or Chaos Dwarf magic item list

* May Ride a Mechanical Monstrosity (+85 points)
[/i]Special Rules

Relentless, Short of Statue[/i]

-

Sorcerer Lord - 225 points/model

Sorcerer Lord M1 WS4 BS3 S3 T5 W3 I1 A1 LD10 


Hand Weapon

A Sorcerer Lord is a level 3 Wizard who may cast spells from the Hashut, Fire, Metal or Shadow lores.

* May be upgraded to a level 4 Wizard for +35 points

* May wear Daemonforged Armour (+45 points)

* May choose up to 100 points of Magic items taken from the common and/or Chaos Dwarf magic item list

* May ride a Lammasu (+140 points)

Special Rules

Relentless, Short of Statue, Stone Curse

Stone Curse[/i][/b]

A Sorcerer Lord has slightly altered stats as shown above, as well as a 5+ Stone Skin save.

-

Despot[/b] 70 points/model

Despot M3 WS6 BS4 S4 T5 W2 I3 A3 LD9


Hand Weapon

* May wield a Great Weapon (+4 points), a pistol (+7 points) and/or an Additional Hand Weapon (+4 points)

* May equip a Blunderbuss (+14 points)

* May wear Heavy Armour (+4 points) or Obsidian Armour (+6 points)

* May wear a Shield (+2 points)

* May choose up to 50 points of Magic items taken from the common and/or Chaos Dwarf magic item list

* One Despot may be upgraded to Battle Standard Bearer for +25 points. A Battle Standard Bearer may not wear any other mundane equipment save Heavy or Obsidian Armour.

* A Battle Standard bearer may take any Magic Standard from the common or Chaos Dwarf Magic Item list. If he does, he may not take any additional magic items.

Special Rules[/b]

Relentless, Short of Statue[/i]

-

Sorcerer - 100 points/model

Sorcerer M3 WS4 BS3 S3 T4 W2 I2 LD9


Hand Weapon

A Sorcerer is a level 1 Wizard who may cast spells from the Hashut, Fire, Metal or Shadow Lores.

* May be upgraded to a level 2 Wizard for +35 points

* May choose up to 50 points of Magic items taken from the common and/or Chaos Dwarf magic item list

Special Rules

Relentless, Short of Statue[/i]

-

Bull Centaur Scion - 110 points/model

Bull Centaur Scion M7 WS6 BS3 S5 T5 W2 I3 A3(4) LD9


Hand Weapon

* May wield a Great Weapon (+4 points) and/or an Additional Hand Weapon (+4 points)

* May wear Heavy Armour (+4 points)

* May choose up to 50 points of Magic items taken from the common and/or Chaos Dwarf magic item list

Special Rules

Relentless, Aloof, Hoof Attack, Tough Hide, Centaur

Aloof[/i][/b]

A Bull Centaur Scion may not join any unit except Bull Centaurs. In addition it may never be the army general.

Hoof Attack[/b][/i]

In addition to his normal attacks a Bull Centaur Scion gets an extra attack made at his base strength. This attack is not affected by bonuses from whatever weapon the Bull Centaur Scion is wielding.

Tough Hide[/i]

A Bull Centaur Scion is a huge, thick-skinned and heavily barded beast of battle. It gets a natural 5+ armour save which may be combined with other armour as normal.

Centaur[/i]

Although being mounted on a cavalry base, a Bull Centaur Scion is for all purposes considered a model on foot, except that it has Unit Strength of 2.

-

Arcane Engineer - 70 points/model

Arcane Engineer M3 WS4 BS4 S3 T4 I2 A2 LD9


Hand Weapon

* May wear Heavy Armour (+4 points) or Daemonfused Armour (+45 points)

* May Wield a Great Weapon (+4 points) , a Pistol (+7 points) or a Brace of Pistols (+14 points)

* May equip a Blunderbuss (+14 points)

* May choose up to 50 points of Magic items from the common and/or Chaos Dwarf magic item list

* May ride a Mechanical Monstrosity (+85 points)

* May replace one of the Crewmen on a Kollossus. The Lost crewmans cost will not be refunded.
[/i]Special Rules:

Relentless, Short of Statue, Gearhead, Crewman, Engineer

Gearhead[/i]

An Arcane Engineer may never be your army general.

Crewman[/i][/b]

An Arcane Engineer on foot may join a Hellcannon as an extra Crewman. If he joins a Rampaging Hellcannon (ie gets into base contact with it) it will immideatly submit to his will and will behave as normal the following turn.

Engineer[/b][/i]

A single pair of Rocketeers or a Hellcannon joined by an Arcane Engineer may re-roll the first artillery dice once per shooting phase if accompanied by an Arcane Engineer. This may be used to prevent a misfire. The second result stands. He may not fire his own missile weapon if using this power, and if the crew is removed as casualties as the result of a misfire he is removed with them. In addition, when the Engineer or any mount he is riding or War Machine he is crewing (including the Hellcannon) rolls for Daemonic or Symbiotic construct you may instead use 3d6 and discard the highest. If fighting a challenge whilst riding a Kollossus, the Kollossus will not partake in the challenge unless the enemy character (and its mount) is the only enemy model in base contact with the Kollossus. The Chaos Dwarf crew will never interfere in the challenge as per normal.

-

Lammasu (40x40 base)

Lammasu M6 WS3 BS0 S5 T5 W3 I3 A2 LD9


Special Rules

Causes Fear, Flying, Magic Resistance (2), 5+ Stony Skin, S3 Breath Weapon[/i]

-

Mechanical Monstrosity (Kinda like a more mechanical Juggernaut; think cogs, gears, vents etc) (40x40 base)

Mechanical Monstrosity M7 WS4 BS0 S5 T6 W4 I1 A3 LD10


* May choose up to 25 points of Arcane Machinery

Special rules:

Fear, Large Target, Daemonic Construct, Lumbering, 4+ Metallic hide[/i]

-

Warriors - 8 points/model

Warrior    M3 WS4 BS3 S3 T4 W1 I2 A1 LD9
Enforcerer M3 WS4 BS3 S3 T4 W1 I2 A2 LD9


Hand Weapons, Heavy Armour

Unit Size: 10+

* May wield Glaives (+1 point/model) or Great Weapons (+2 points/model)

* May wear Shields (+1 point/model)

* May upgrade one model to Enforcerer for 10 points

* May upgrade one model to Standard Bearer for 10 points

* May upgrade one model to Musician for 5 points

Special Rules

Relentless, Short of Statue[/i]

-

Blunderblussers - 12 points/model

Blunderblusser M3 WS4 BS3 S3 T4 W1 I2 A1 LD9
Deadeye M3 WS4 BS4 S3 T4 W1 I2 A1 LD9


Hand Weapon, Blunderbluss, Heavy Armour

Unit Size: 10+

* May wear Shields (+1 point/model)

* May upgrade one model to Deadeye for 5 points

* May upgrade one model to Standard Bearer for 10 points

* May upgrade one model to Musician for 5 points

Special Rules

Relentless, Short of Statue[/i]

-

Hobgoblins - 4 points/model

Hobgoblin M4 WS3 BS3 S3 T3 I2 A1 LD6
Khan M4 WS4 BS3 S3 T3 I3 A2 LD7


Hand Weapons, Shields

Unit Size: 20+

* May wield Spears (+1 poin/model)

* May exchange their Shields for Short Bows (+1 point/model)

* May wear Light Armour (+1 point/model)

* May upgrade one model to Khan for 13 points

* May upgrade one model to Standard Bearer for 8 points

* May upgrade one model to Musician for 4 points

Special Rules

Insignificant, Thouroughly Subdued, Untrustworthy[/i]

-

Hobgoblin Wolf Riders - 13 points/model

Hobgoblin  M4 WS3 BS3 S3 T3 I2 A1 LD6
Khan M4 WS4 BS3 S3 T3 I3 A2 LD7
Giant Wolf M9 WS3 BS0 S3 T3 I4 A1 LD3


Hand Weapons, spears, Shields

Unit Size: 5+

* May exchange their spears and Shields for Short Bows at no additional point cost.

* May wear Light Armour (+1 point/model) (Note that they won’t be fast cavalry anymore if wearing both LA and Shields)

* May upgrade one model to Khan for 15 points

* May upgrade one model to Standard Bearer for 10 points

* May upgrade one model to Musician for 5 points

Special Rules

Insignificant, Thouroughly Subdued, Untrustworthy, Fast Cavalry[/i]

-

Sneaky Gits - 7 points/model

Sneaky Git  M4 WS3 BS3 S3 T3 W1 I3 A1 LD6
Backstabber M4 WS4 BS3 S3 T3 W1 I4 A2 LD7


2 Poisoned Hand Weapons, Light Armour

Unit Size: 20-40

* May upgrade one model to Backstabber for 15 points

* May upgrade one model to Standard Bearer for 10 points

* May upgrade one model to Musician for 5 points

Special Rules

Insignificant, Thouroughly Subdued, Untrustworthy, Poisoned Attacks, Sneaky Fightin’ Style[/i]Sneaky Fightin’ Style[/i][/b]

As long as they have the prerequisite extra ranks, a unit of Sneaky Gits will always lap around after close combat, even if they lost the previous round of close combat.

-

Icarii[/b] - 18 points/model (Dwarwes fused into half mechanical half daemon armour with grafted wings)

Icarius  M3 WS4 BS3 S3 T4 W1 I2 A1 LD9
Sungazer M3 WS4 BS4 S3 T4 W1 I2 A1 LD9


Hand Weapon, Blunderbuss

Unit Size: 5-20

* May upgrade one model to Sungazer for 7 points

Special Rules:[/b]

Relentless, Short of Statue, Flying Unit, Skirmishers, Symbiotic Constructs, 5+ Metallic hide

Flying Unit[/i][/b]

Icarii are a Flying Unit as per the rulebook, with the exception that their flying movement is reduced to 15’’ in order to represent the Icarii’s relative inexperience at handling their wings, as well as continously having to fight back the daemonic sentience imbuing them.

-

Infernals[/b] - 65 points/model (Ogre sized metallic/daemonic walker mechs with what used to be a chaos dwarf fused into the middle of it) (40x40 bases)

Infernal   M6 WS4 BS0 S5 T5 W3 I2 A3 LD9
Hellraiser M6 WS4 BS0 S5 T5 W3 I2 A4 LD9


Unit size: 3-12

* May upgrade one model to Hellraiser for 20 points

* Hellraiser may take up to 25 points of Arcane Machinery

Special Rules:[/b]

Cause Fear, Symbiotic Constructs, Lumbering, 4+ Metallic Hide[/i]

-

Immortals - 16 points/model

Immortal M3 WS5 BS3 S4 T4 W1 I2 A1 LD9
Eternal M3 WS5 BS3 S4 T4 W1 I2 A2 LD9


Obsidian Armour, Hand Weapons, Great Weapons

Unit Size: 10-30

* May upgrade one model to Eternal for 14 points

* May upgrade one model to Standard Bearer for 14 points

* May upgrade one model to Musician for 7 points

* May take a Magical Standard worth up to 50 points

Special Rules:

Relentless, Short of Statue, Immune to Psychology, Personal Guard

Personal Guard[/i][/b]

You may have 1 unit of Immortals in your army for each Lord level character present in it.

-

Rocket Teams[/b] - 45 points/model (One dwarf holding a rocket launcher over his shoulder, the other feeding daemonically infused rockets.) (Cavalry Base)

Rocket Team M3 WS4 BS4 S3 T4 W2 I2 A2 LD9


Heavy Armour, Hand Weapons, Death Rocket Launcher

Unit Size: 3-10

Special Rules:[/b]

Relentless, Short of Statue, Skirmishers, Weapons Team, Death Rockets

Weapons Team[/i][/b]

Although individuals, for simplicity both members of a Rocket Team have a shared statline as above. All Rocket Teams in a unit share the same LOS and will all fire at the same target in the shooting phase. Also despite being mounted on cavalry bases the Rocket Teams counts as infantry for all intents and purposes.

Death Rockets[/b][/i]

Treat each Rocket Team as a stonethrower with the following exceptions:

Maximimum guessing range is 30"

Due to the malovelent intelligence of the rockets, you may re-roll the scatter Dice

Model at the center of the blast is hit at S5 with no armour save, models caught in the blast radius are hit at S3 with a -1 AS modifier

Each succesful wound causes D3 wounds

Use the following misfire table:

1-2 Boom. The rocket team is removed as casualties.

3-4 Rocket attempts to escape. Fire in a random direction determined by the scatter die (the scatter dice may not be re-rolled).

5-6 The rocket jammed. The unit fails to fire the rocket but is otherwise unharmed. It may fire as normal the next turn.

-

Kollossus - 250 points (50x50 base)

Kollossus M6 WS4 BS0 S6 T6 W8 I1 A4 LD10
Crewman M3 WS4 BS3 S3 T4 W1 I2 A1 LD9


Crew has Heavy armour and Hand weapons

Unit Size: 1 Kollossus with 4 crew

* May choose up to 75 points of Arcane Machinations

Special Rules:

Terror, Large Target, Unit Strength 8, Daemonic Construct, Lumbering, Crewed Construct, 4+ Metallic Hide

Crewed Construct[/i][/b]

Treat the crew as riding a ridden monster (ie randomize shooting, fights as normal in close combat etc). In addition the bulk of the construct protects the crew to a degree, increasing the armour save of any model crewing the construct by 1 (giving the crewmen a combined Armour Save of 4+).

Crewmen removed as casualties does not give Victory Points to the opponent, and if the Kollossus is destroyed all surviving crewmen are killed alongside it.

-

Bull Centaurs[/b] - 33 points/model

Bull Centaur M7 WS5 BS3 S4 T4 W1 I2 A1(2) LD9
Sentinel M7 WS5 BS3 S5 T4 W1 I2 A2(3) LD9


Hand Weapons, Great Weapons, Heavy Armour

Unit Size: 5-20

May swap their Great Weapons for additional hand weapons at no additional point cost.

May upgrade one model to Sentinel for 20 points

* May upgrade one model to Standard Bearer for 15 points

* May upgrade one model to Musician for 10 points

* May take a Magical Standard worth up to 50 points

Special Rules[/b]

Relentless, Aloof, Hoof Attack, Tough Hide, Centaurs

Aloof[/i][/b]

A unit of Bull Centaurs may not be joined by any characters except for Bull Centaur Scions.

Hoof Attack[/b][/i]

In addition to his normal attacks a Bull Centaur gets an extra attack made at his base strength. This attack is not affected by mundane or magical weapon bonuses.

Tough Hide[/i]

A Bull Centaur is a huge, thick-skinned and heavily barded beast of war. It gets a natural 5+ armour save which combines with the Heavy Armour for a total save of 3+.

Centaurs[/i]

Although being

TRUNCATED…

Tallhat:

Wheres the Earthshaker and Death Rockets? Cant really make an army list without them as they are officially mentioned in Grudgebearer from which youve already nicked the Immortals. You cant really have one without the other.

- Tallhat

Infinitum:

Eaten by the Hellcannons along with the Great Taurus. The list already have the aforementioned big shooty warmachine, the Death Rocket is carried by weapon teams instead and the Mechanical Monstrosity Replaces the Taurus. I wanted to take the list away from static defense in order to differentiate it further from the Dwarf list, and also the Earthshaker is part of what makes people reluctant to embrace the chaos dwarwes as an army to begin with (also with the Daemonic Constructs denying the enemy of artillery fire would probably be over the top).

Also as demonstrated by GW time and time again, the fluff in itself is highly mallable. Anyway do you have any comment on the list in itself? Would love to hear it ;).

duktu:

Ok, I have a few thoughts.

Firstly, the untrustworthy rule - why not change it simply to non-chaos-dwarf? Or greenskins actually? You’re creating a rule here, that already exists. I don’t see the point in this. Also, can a despot join a unit of bull centaurs? Because right now it seems, that he can.

Daemonic constructs - are they stable? I mean, undead and daemons are unstable, but unbreakable. It’s a matter of balance. I think that your constructs doesn’t have much of a downside to balance them out (magical attacks, etc). They can be like that, but you need to make sure that the unit cost affect this.

Why there are no hobbo heroes? I kinda like the idea of a possible hobgoblin army.

The obsidian armor is too strong/good in my opinion. It can work like that for heroes, but not necessarily for (even) elite unit. Why not make it 5+AS and either 3+ AS vs shooting or -1 to hit? I think that Dark Elves have this seadragon cloak or something, that for corsairs give them only +2AS vs shooting, but for the heroes it gives +1AS and +2AS vs shooting. This armor could work in a similar way (meaning, MR(1) only for heroes wearing it).

Ok, since I’m at the Immortals I have to ask - where does the immune to psychology come from? It’s quite consistent, yet in the quotes on wiki there was no mention of them being “fearless” or anything. Just because they’re elite unit, doesn’t mean that they have to be super-strong. Can they take magic banner? You haven’t noted that anywhere, so I’m asking.

Glaive is interesting, but I think that it should be optional. I prefer to go with a more of a horde approach, so the points are important :hat I would make warriors with heavy armor and optional glaive, gw, shield (whatever one likes).

About the blunderbuss - I kinda prefer the way it is now. Meaning S3 and +1S for every rank. This is fun and different from every other army. Not to mention that you actually take more than minimum number of shooters in a unit. I would love to have BB’s with heavy armor and shields. They would make perfect close-combat unit.

The Icarii - heavy armor on a flying unit is of course nice, but not really practical. Maybe give them daemonic save?

I don’t have time to really chew-up through the arcane machinations, so I won’t comment on that. I also agree with Tallhat about Earthshakers and Death Rockets. I also don’t see any bolt throwers, they’re nice so maybe think of adding them to the list.

Infinitum:

Thanks for the feedback! Please keep it coming!

Firstly, the untrustworthy rule - why not change it simply to non-chaos-dwarf? Or greenskins actually? You’re creating a rule here, that already exists. I don’t see the point in this. Also, can a despot join a unit of bull centaurs? Because right now it seems, that he can.
True that, you could substitute the word untrustworthy for “Greenskin” and end up with the original rule. It does sound niftier imo, and is in line with the Hobgoblin fluff. About the BC, any rule preventing non-BC characters from joining would be in their unit entry, which isn’t done yet. Suffice to say only BC characters should be able to join BC units. In any case I’ll redo the rules paragraph concerning it.
Daemonic constructs - are they stable? I mean, undead and daemons are unstable, but unbreakable. It’s a matter of balance. I think that your constructs doesn’t have much of a downside to balance them out (magical attacks, etc). They can be like that, but you need to make sure that the unit cost affect this.
Using the Hellcannon as a template dictates that they are not unstable. Not being able to march, the semi-frenzy and the fact they will always rampage when their controllers die serves to balance them besides the pricetag (uncertain what it should be… I’m thinking about 90-100 points for the monstrosity and around 300 for the Kollossus).
Why there are no hobbo heroes? I kinda like the idea of a possible hobgoblin army.


To further denote the Hobbos as servants of the CD and not a coherrent force in their own right (think Ogres and Gnoblars). What about having +1 LD Hobgoblin Khans as unit champions instead (point increase by 5 points to balance out)?
The obsidian armor is too strong/good in my opinion. It can work like that for heroes, but not necessarily for (even) elite unit. Why not make it 5+AS and either 3+ AS vs shooting or -1 to hit? I think that Dark Elves have this seadragon cloak or something, that for corsairs give them only +2AS vs shooting, but for the heroes it gives +1AS and +2AS vs shooting. This armor could work in a similar way (meaning, MR(1) only for heroes wearing it).
It can be balanced by pointcosts though. MR (1) on a magic banner is 15 points iirc and -1 to hit with missile fire is what, 50 points? Remember that CD are pretty much confined to 1 of these units in a 2000 points battle and the army is more aggressive than Dwarfes whilst retaining that M3 means they would never see combat otherwise. T4 with a 5+ AS isn’t unreasonable for being killed in CC.
Ok, since I’m at the Immortals I have to ask - where does the immune to psychology come from? It’s quite consistent, yet in the quotes on wiki there was no mention of them being “fearless” or anything. Just because they’re elite unit, doesn’t mean that they have to be super-strong. Can they take magic banner? You haven’t noted that anywhere, so I’m asking.
Well, it’s pretty much the only “elite” designation rule not currently employed by the Dwarfes, and they definetly need something that sets them apart aside from the armour and stats. Also ITP infantry is rare, the only thing coming to mind are Undead, Daemons, Slaaneshi warriors and yellow-crested Sauri. As for the banner that’ll have to wait until I create an armylist section (or a magic item section for that matter, ugh). As an Elite unit it’ll definetly be able to field on though.
Glaive is interesting, but I think that it should be optional. I prefer to go with a more of a horde approach, so the points are important :hat I would make warriors with heavy armor and optional glaive, gw, shield (whatever one likes).
Again it’s there mostly to set the CD apart from the other stunties. Also it seems neat fluffwise as crowd control what with the CD having to subdue large numbers of tough opponents (orcs). Anyway CD warriors only armed with HW and Shields seems fairly viable as well, although the models would look better wielding polearms methink.
About the blunderbuss - I kinda prefer the way it is now. Meaning S3 and +1S for every rank. This is fun and different from every other army. Not to mention that you actually take more than minimum number of shooters in a unit. I would love to have BB’s with heavy armor and shields. They would make perfect close-combat unit.
Either way, although shooting in multiple ranks with a blackpowder weapon is inconsistent with the rules at large. Also bringing it in line with the rest of the rules makes CD blend in better in the WHFB universe. Shields should always be an option imo (and with a range of 12’’ they’ll still need them).
The Icarii - heavy armor on a flying unit is of course nice, but not really practical. Maybe give them daemonic save?
Daemonic wouldn’t really work because the dwarf in the armour is still part of the mortal world and thus wouldn’t be able to have stuff pass through him etc. Maybe a Metallic Skin Save instead?

duktu:

I don’t have the patience to quote everything and answering below, so I’ll focus on the important things only :wink:

The obsidian armor is too strong/good in my opinion. [cut]
It can be balanced by pointcosts though. MR (1) on a magic banner is 15 points iirc and -1 to hit with missile fire is what, 50 points? Remember that CD are pretty much confined to 1 of these units in a 2000 points battle and the army is more aggressive than Dwarfes whilst retaining that M3 means they would never see combat otherwise. T4 with a 5+ AS isn’t unreasonable for being killed in CC.

Infinitum
Well, yes you’re right. MR(1) costs 15pts. But remember that usually this is 30% of the character’s/unit’s magic items allowance. This is a rather important factor. Only a handful of units gets it for “free” (like Khorne marked units). I’m against a simple “point increase” tactic, because that’s what breaks the game IMO. It’s important to see the army as a whole, and not only the point cost. Sure, I have a unit A, and unit B is the same but has MR(1). So the cost of a 1 model should be increased by 1pt. Great, everything is balanced. Right? No, it’s not right. Points cost won’t make an army coherent.

Also by packing MR and -1 to hit in one unit you’re another person that creates an obvious special choice. I prefer to have more units, one that is harder to hit, another that is resistant to magic and maybe some other.
Ok, since I’m at the Immortals I have to ask - where does the immune to psychology come from?

[cut]
Well, it’s pretty much the only “elite” designation rule not currently employed by the Dwarfes, and they definetly need something that sets them apart aside from the armour and stats. Also ITP infantry is rare, the only thing coming to mind are Undead, Daemons, Slaaneshi warriors and yellow-crested Sauri. As for the banner that’ll have to wait until I create an armylist section (or a magic item section for that matter, ugh). As an Elite unit it’ll definetly be able to field on though.

Infinitum
I understand the desire to make the army different, but it won’t be completely different if you just choose different special rules. Think of HE and DE. Those armies are mirrored in the way that most of the units have the same stats, occupy the same slot/choice and usually have even similar cost. The only difference is set of rules (black guard and phoenix guard, executioners and sword masters). This will change with the new HE book, or so I hear.

Besides, apart from new GW policy, there’s no rule saying that special units absolutely have to have special rules. I’m in for the special armor thing, but apart from that, I would prefer to see Immortals as a “base/standard” elite infantry. And we could think of another unit with similar stats but maybe some interesting rules.
The Icarii - heavy armor on a flying unit is of course nice, but not really practical. Maybe give them daemonic save?
Daemonic wouldn’t really work because the dwarf in the armour is still part of the mortal world and thus wouldn’t be able to have stuff pass through him etc. Maybe a Metallic Skin Save instead?



Infinitum
What I meant is the fact, that flying units doesn’t usually wear heavy armor. Birds have very light skeleton to be able to fly, a dwarf either in heavy plate or with metal skin would be just to heavy to actually fly. So they would need to be magically levitated. If so, daemonic save is a reasonable choice. Also I believe this is somewhat a try on creating power list. Unit that can fly, charge 20", use skirmish formation, wear heavy armor (is there another skirmishing unit with HA?) and can shoot. Doesn’t that strike you like too much?

Still, don’t get me wrong. A flying dwarfs sounds cool and I’m all for it. Just make it reasonable, because right now, they’re just short of unbreakable rule.

Maybe make them have grafted daemon wings that gives them ability to fly (maybe not that good as other flyers - 10" move, and the same or longer charge range). Drop the BB’s, give them only light armor, skirmish formation and something similar to braystaff (+2AS or +2S). And a special rules: stupidity (the wings trying to take over) and something saying that when they lose combat then the number of attacks of the whole unit is decreased by the combat result (wings took over and are attacking/distracting other dwarfs). That would be fluffy and would need a little thought and strategy while using them.

Just my thoughts.

Infinitum:

[The obsidian armor is too strong

Duktu
A variety of Elite units is a Dwarf trademark though, and I'd like to keep it that way. Also +2 AS vs shooting has been done, and generally involves Cloaks of some kind. This is merely another way going about it. This unit will be one a one-of in most armies due to the restriction rule and will probably have an enourmous bullseye painted on it (and unlike Dwarwes CD will have a tough time outshooting a dedicated opponent using this list). Also this rule makes it an excellent bodyguard unit to hide characters in without actually creating a specific��rule for it.
The Immortals shouldn't have Immune to psychology, some other unit should have the special rules

Duktu
That'd be the Ziggurat Guard then.. but multiple Elite infantry is too Dwarfish to me. However paradoxally enough ITP might serve to keep the cost of the unit up, thus hindering it from being a no brainer in 2k armies. You make a good point though, gotta do some playtesting on it.
The Icarii are over the top.

Duktu
Heavily armoured Dwarwes with Daemonic technowings are more steampunk though.

They're Symbiotic Constructs, meaning that they are fused into Daemonic Armour suits (with grafted wings, there's a short description next to the unit name in the bestiary) and have to charge the closest enemy unit within 2d6'' if they fail a leadership tests at the beginning of their turn, which covers it for the armour trying to take charge. (Sorry if this wasn't clear enough).

Also their CC capabilities are pretty moot (1 S3 attack each) meaning they have a harder time hunting other skirmishers the way Harpies/Furies/Terradons etc does. Also considering that most of the things they'll target with those BB's have missile weapons on their own it should even the field somewhat. Getting half a dozen or so shots off whilst harrassing is good, but not gamebreaking.

Being able to target some Warmachine Crew on turn one might be though, although so can Terradons iirc. Toting a gun whilst flying around may be too 40k anyway, swap the BB for additional hand weapons (which would essentially make them better harpies) or drop altogether? Either that or dropping their movement to 15'' (which makes sense actually).

As for the Heavy Armour, Chaos Furies have an (arguably, most Magic Missiles are S4+ anyway) better save and Mengil Manhide's Manflayers Skirmish with Heavy Armour (and great weapons and poisoned RXB's and fear iir, although they cost almost 20 points per model).

duktu:

Okay I’ll start from the most important part:

The Immortals shouldn’t have Immune to psychology, some other unit should have the special rules

Duktu
[cut]
The Icarii are over the top.

Duktu


Infinitum
Please don’t ever do that again.

If you want to quote my post don’t edit it! The first quote about immortals doesn’t even sound like a sentence and I had a hard time figuring out what you meant by it.

Remember that quoting means answering the unchanged sentence. You can cut it, but mark it as cut or something.
A variety of Elite units is a Dwarf trademark though, and I’d like to keep it that way.

Infinitum
Well, actually most armies have more than one elite unit. All the elves, I believe human armies too. Probably O&G have only one elite unit, the black orcs. Chaos, but that’s somewhat different story, they have other chaos armies units as special choices. Lizards might have only one elite unit, but they have cavalry and sacred spawnings (or something) so they can vary their army.
Heavily armoured Dwarwes with Daemonic technowings are more steampunk though.

Infinitum
I agree.

I guess, I’m not too keen on the the symbiotic construct thing. It’s an interesting idea, but needs more work.

I was thinking - if you want them to have the heavy armor and wings, maybe make them move kinda like astronauts on the moon? They could jump with the wings a few more inches. I was thinking +2M for the wings (and normal charge/march rules). It could look funny though, depends on how serious you treat them :stuck_out_tongue:
As for the Heavy Armour, Chaos Furies have an (arguably, most Magic Missiles are S4+ anyway) better save and Mengil Manhide’s Manflayers Skirmish with Heavy Armour (and great weapons and poisoned RXB’s and fear iir, although they cost almost 20 points per model).

Infinitum
Furies have daemonic save, and Manflayers are a regiment of renown. They’re different and have very special rules (see dwarf slayer pirates and their pistols).

Infinitum:

Sorry about the quotes, I used them to structure the post, meant no harm etc. My apologies.

Maybe I should rephrase the Dwarf statement; they have an abundance of elite infantry units (4 including the slayers). The Lizzies and Mortals also have tough infantry blocks, but those are mainstay units with the exception of Temple Guards and Sacred Spawnings, who are more of a unit upgrade anyway.

As for the Furies and Manflayers, they are there to prove that there are “armoured” Skirmishers within the game design space (a daemonic ward is in any case better than Heavy Armour since magical attacks are most likely to decimate small support units anyway). The symbiotic construct is there to prevent the army of being full of semi-frenzied unbreakable unts, and can be explained by the CD wishing to excert a greater amount of control over their creations (Also imagine conversion potential of models part mortal, part machine part daemon). I’m not really fond of the jumppack ides… armoured flyers are too close to 40k as is.

duktu:

I haven’t played the 40k so I don’t know about the jump packs. It was just an idea.

Also I don’t think that furies are “armored” per se. Daemonic save is not an armor (I would even say that they are sort of naked), it’s a magical thingy and I’m talking about skirmishers in heavy armor. There’s a difference. So we have only one unit, that at the same time is a very special unit (the regiment of renown) and it can have it’s own rules, so I wouldn’t compare them.

As to the dwarf elites - remember that longbeards are also an upgrade. So they have one less. And Slayers aren’t really elite (no armor, no elite stats, no magic standard) they’re unbreakable and can have high strength. But this depends on the enemy, against elves they will have S3. So I’ll say - two elites for sure, rest is discussable (as the spawnings are).

Infinitum:

I’m talking protection from a game balance perspective, not fluffwise (with fluff generally being very flexible indeed). I’d still define Longbeards as an Elite unit becuase of the stat increase compared to vanilla warriors (are they still immune to panic in 7th?). Either way I’d like to bring the discussion back to the army list composition as it is as of now. Any ideas of improvement or should I start focusing on a Magic Lore & Items?