Had an interesting chat with GW store manager about the relative points values of the two forces in the starter set for Dark Vengance. With no upgrades other than that which the models are armed with the Chaos Space marines come to 529 points and are a legal force (1 HQ, 2 troops, 2 elites). The Dark Angels weigh in at a hefty 825 points and are not a legal force according to the current codex (2HQ, 1 Troops, 1 Elites and 1 Fast Attack)
This is similarly mirrored in the Islands of Blood set, High Elves 895 and not a legal force and Skaven legal but a mere 619 points)
While obvious once pointed out the Manager told me this was deliberate, when kids come in wanting an intro game they inevitably want to be the good guys, so these games are skewed to make sure that the potential new starter wins therefore pushing the positive aspect of winning the game and increasing the chance of them coming back and buying the box (and everything else that goes with it)
As a hardened bad guy fan that�?Ts been in the hobby for a long time I found this quite a revelation and an interesting insight into the psychology used by the marketing people at GW.
With the new movie coming out and a big Christmas push on its way I�?Td fully expect the new set for the Hobbit will be biased along the same lines.
That’s clever, and I’ve nothing against it. As long as the starter set models look fine and the box is a good buy I’ll be happy with whatever tricks GW have up their sleeves.
when kids come in wanting an intro game they inevitably want to be the good guys
Pah, feeble-minded buffoons. I would have chosen the bad guys, certainly when I was a kid.
Baggronor
You're not alone on that aspect, but the majority of youngsters side with the good side, as can also be seen from the preponderance of Alliance players in World of Warcraft if my WoW-playing friend is correct.
Having worked at Games Workshop, I can tell you that the man is irrevocably wrong. People more of ten than not go for the bad guys in my experience, but that is all down to how you explain who they are (it’s easier to make evil stuff sound cool because good guy stuff sounds restrained and like they hold back - in my case).
Regarding the contents of the boxes - It’s to bring some equality to the numbers of models per person. A kid with Skaven and a kid with High Elves go halves on Island of Blood, pay and equal amount, get an equal number of points, but the Skaven player has 4 times as many models? Think people would EVER be the good guys in such a situation?
Having worked at Games Workshop, I can tell you that the man is irrevocably wrong. People more of ten than not go for the bad guys in my experience, but that is all down to how you explain who they are (it's easier to make evil stuff sound cool because good guy stuff sounds restrained and like they hold back - in my case).
Regarding the contents of the boxes - It's to bring some equality to the numbers of models per person. A kid with Skaven and a kid with High Elves go halves on Island of Blood, pay and equal amount, get an equal number of points, but the Skaven player has 4 times as many models? Think people would EVER be the good guys in such a situation?
Hashut's Blessing
That's still less models to paint for the elf player, which might appeal to some.
I would have thought that most people would choose the evil army.
I also would have thought that GW would put in a crappy card “model” representation to bump up the points cost of one side without having to add an actual model. Definitely don’t think they ever do the box contents based on people splitting the box. It’s a tiny sample of two boxsets really. Not really much you can judge from it.
Not that I know much at all about the FoC for DA (or any of 40k for that matter!), but did they not just pick the only interesting parts? Would have been a waste to put loads of regular marines in just to make up the points, considering people can buy them off the shelves normally.
I’d like to know if the store manager got this information directly from the marketing department or if this is his conclusion from his own experience. I think I understand the rationale but I wonder what kind of results from market research would lead to such a bias in the design of a starter set.
I don’t see why any company would design a starter set to respond to the specific situation where a potential client would like to play a good army (even if it is the most probable scenario). I understand that the assumption is that this kid comes to the store and plays against store staff or experienced players - and that he/she is more likely to buy the game if he wins. Why then would they need to give him a stronger army? Couldn’t just the experienced player pull some punches and let the potential client win?
What if two potential clients come to the store together and want to try the game playing against each other? Would it make sense to give one of them a more powerful army than the other?
I know it is quite different, but this reminds me of the first time I ever played Star Wars RPG. All of us wanted to be Sith! Our game master had to puke a full explanation on how a party needed a pilot, a scout, a diplomat, etc, and yet we all wanted to flash dual red light sabers. Some times, in particular cases, the dark side is more appealing. :hashut
I remember the first demo game I ever played in a GW store back in the day. I had to play the spacemarines unfortunately…my friend got lucky and got the orcs…
Anywho - I can guarantee that information wasn;t supplied by anyone other than the store manager. Partly because it's hogwash, as I said before.
Regarding the whole two people come in thing - you just see where the dice land, really. Ultimately, you don't want t be using EVERYthing in a trial game anyway as it takes too long. As for teaching the game, you want people to bring their own stuff and then you teach them to make an army list and they plan to get more and it balances out. Either way, no problems...
Admiral - painting less models as appealing: very true, but equally, when you're being shownt he finished pieces, you tend to go "I want lots of those finished pieces", rather than "I don't want very many because I can't be bothered to paint them, which means I'm in luck - I'm paying the same as my friend for the privilege of having less product at the end of it..."
The reason there's no "card model representation" is likely 1) it spoils the aesthetic and ha no other use, 2) it's not as cool as a model and 3) the good armies aren't legal anyway, so they're forced to buy more to be able to use what they have.
Admiral - painting less models as appealing: very true, but equally, when you're being shownt he finished pieces, you tend to go "I want lots of those finished pieces", rather than "I don't want very many because I can't be bothered to paint them, which means I'm in luck - I'm paying the same as my friend for the privilege of having less product at the end of it..."
Hashut's Blessing
Very well, could it then be a streak of mercy that gives the High Elf player less models? I probably paint four, five or even six Clanrats to a good standard in the same time it takes me to paint a single High Elf, with all those fiddly details. ;P
I would like the starter box to give substantial forces to both sides, but I still think it's something of a bargain for the High Elf player. Not for numbers, but for looks' sake.
The Lothern Sea Guard have reached an aesthetic plateau of perfection with Isle of Blood, and GW could probably only improve them by releasing kneeling Sea Guard, or Sea Guard in a phalanx formation, or Sea Guard firing bows. The same probably goes for Ellyrion Reavers, because just like the Sea Guards I couldn't think of anything to sculpt on them, and my elf-playing brother is quite demanding with conversions to make his army the best High Elf army ever. Well, it'll at least be pretty good once it's fully painted in who-knows-how-many-year's time.
The Griphon and commander are also quite good, although not perfect, and even the Swordmasters are good if you remove those ridiculous, gigantic shoulder pads and sculpt smaller ones. It's a pity about their poses, however, because they stand in about the same way as the metal swordmasters, and are even out of scale with their predecessors. GW should have given them cloaks, because that always look good on a Swordmaster. And the Mage is decent, and holds way better detail than the multi-part plastic kit available.
In all, the Isle of Blood box might be everything but an ideal first purchase for a beginner who picks High Elves, but it is an exceptional booster pack for existing collectors.
I�?Tm sorry to say I don�?Tt know where the Manager got it from but it seemed a reasonable explanation at the time.
I�?Tm not sold on the parity in numbers of models argument, the Battle For Skull Pass I seem to think was more balanced from a points point of view but massively weighted in terms of number in favour of the goblins, and ended up with a self-contained boxed game where either side had a reasonable chance of winning without adding any more models. The Assault on Black Reach also seemed to be reasonably balanced but model wise favoured the orks.
Both the new boxes the game is weighted heavily towards the good side winning (and still the skaven models 47 significantly outnumber the elves 27) which in my opinion makes them a poor starter set for beginners which is what I thought it was supposed to be.
As has been rightly pointed out the models themselves are great and I have no problem at all with the quality and agree they make an excellent and cheap add on to an existing force or starting point for a new army. If the manager I talked to is wrong I�?Td love to hear the real reason behind the bias.
Most of the evil starter armies are horde types. Ergo they will need more models and often the number that can actually fit a box means creating a meaningful force leaves one side with less models. Since points are generally reflective of effectiveness the side with somewhat less models comes out ahead on points. The difference between Dwarfs and Goblins is less than the difference between Skaven and HE so naturally HE come out like bandits.
Don’t think there’s a deliberate policy as such. I think they’ve included a varied section of troops though, with an eye to pleasing both vets and newcomers.
If you drop the griffon (the biggest and coolest thing to a young kid for the high elves out of the contents) the forces are about equal points wise. But if you play the game properly, the Skaven have enough ranged stuff to remove the threat of the swordmasters and then its fairly easy (the griffon being a problem).
Although the Skaven still have 20 models more and a serious number of points less, imagine being the kid who gets a box of cool models with a friend and gets told “I’m evil, so I get 50 models and you’re the good guy so you get 10, but that’s okay because it’s fair int he game”. Who wants to have 10 cool guys instead of 50 cool guys? THAT’s the true reasont he good side has more points - because they don’t want the good side to suffer in terms of kids wanting to play that side: 1) As has been seen here, most people want to play baddies (and in my experience working there, this was also true) 2) Kids don’t like to see their mate getting 5 times as much stuff as they are, no matter how powerful their own stuff is 3) It makes it an even more attractive purchase for current players who, again, I find more than 50% playing evil.