So here’s the last one in the series I guess. Gorduz is generally unmodified from his original form in terms of backstory and concept, he just gets his own magic items, plus a special one that will make or break him in a game. Like all greenskins, he just wouldn’t be the same without an element of randomness - roll a 1 before the battle and you’re 35 points out of pocket, but roll a six and you’re paying 40 points less for him. You’ll see what I mean when you get to his last magic item
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Gorduz Backstabber: Hobgoblin Chieftain
It is rare indeed for any hobgoblin leader to achieve anything like lasting fame. The nature of their society is such that any success is necessarily fleeting, and with dozens of potential rivals clamouring for any Chieftain’s death, it is simply a matter of time before he gets lazy one morning and misses the shadow with the dagger lurking around the next corner.
Gorduz Backstabber is the exception to this rule. He has been the leader of the infamous Sneaky Git tribe of Gash Kadrak for as long as anyone can remember, and has survived countless assassination attempts - as the scars that criss-cross his bony shoulder hump attest.
Whether it is due to luck or some other factor, Gorduz always seems to survive whatever his enemies - particularly his rival hobgoblins - throw at him. Some say that Gork and Mork are watching over their sneakiest servant, others whisper that his alliance with the Chaos Dwarfs has earned him the protection of Hashut Himself. There are rumours of magic items, or spells of protection bought in return for thousands of slaves, but those who know Gorduz best will tell anyone who cares to listen that the reason he has survived so long is because he’s so sneaky, so treacherous, so completely and utterly untrustworthy, that no underhanded trick can ever surprise him - he just plain knows every trick in the book, and wrote a few new ones himself.
Gorduz Backstabber is a Hobgoblin Chieftain, one of the few that the Chaos Dwarfs will allow to serve in their armies. He is a Lord choice and must be fielded exactly as presented here, and no extra equipment or magic items can be bought for him. The cost of his magic items is included in his total cost. Gorduz may never be your army General.
M WS BS S T W I A Ld 4 6 3 4 4 3 4 4 8
Points: 225
Weapons:Blades a’ Backstabbin’, Da Black Bow
Armour: Light armour (5+ Armour save while mounted)
Rides: Gorduz rides a wolf (see the Hobgoblin Hero entry).
SPECIAL RULES
Chieftain: Though Gorduz has no authority over Chaos Dwarfs or other greenskins, he is highly respected (in the fashion of that race) by his fellow hobgoblins. Any unit of hobgoblins (including wolf riders or Sneaky Gitz) within 12" of Gorduz may use his Leadership as if he were the army’s General. An army that contains Gorduz must also always contain at least one unit of hobgoblins or Sneaky Gitz.
Sneaky: Gorduz’s knack for survival verges on a supernatural ability. No matter what his enemies seem to throw at him, he always seems to come out fine, with his usual sly grin and a dagger ready to be shoved into the back of the one who attempted to do him in. When Gorduz is reduced to a single wound he receives a 4+ Ward save.
MAGIC ITEMS
The Blades a’ Backstabbin’
As the Chieftain of the Sneaky Git tribe, Gorduz makes use of the trademark set of curved knives his tribe is (in)famous for. Coated in virulent poison, these matched weapons exemplify the attitude of all hobgoblins and specifically Gorduz himself.
The Blades a’ Backstabbin’ count as two hand weapons, and also cause Gorduz’s attacks to count as poisoned attacks.
Da Black Bow
Gorduz likes to think of himself as a leader all hobgoblins, not just Sneaky Gitz, can look up to, something his choice to ride a wolf into battle reflects. In addition to this affectation, he makes use of a small bow that hangs from his saddle in the manner of the hobgoblin tribes of the eastern steppes. Just like his knives, the arrows he fires are coated in venom to ensure that even the slightest knick from their barbed heads can kill.
Da Black Bow is a shortbow. Unsaved wounds from it cause D3 Wounds.
Bag a’ Sneaky Tricks
Over his long life, Gorduz has obtained all manner of interesting talismans, amulets and ju-jus. Some of these he simply stole, others were won in (rigged) dice games and some he took from the corpses of those who tried to kill him. Gorduz keeps these prizes in a small bag on his hip and, before a battle, he digs in and pulls one out at random. Gorduz has no idea what any of them do, but wearing one has stood him in good stead before so the random selection has become something of a pre-battle ritual for him, and a symbol of his sneakiness that reminds his followers how lucky their boss really is.
Roll a D6 before the battle begins to determine the effect of the talisman Gorduz has picked out of his Bag a’ Sneaky Tricks.
D6 Roll… Result 1… Worthless Trinket: The talisman has no effect. 2… Protective Amulet: Gorduz gains a 5+ Ward save 3… Obsidian Shard: Gorduz gains Magic Resistance (2) 4… Radiant Gem: Close combat attacks against Gorduz and his mount suffer a -1 to hit penalty. 5… Troll’s Fang: Gorduz gains the regenerate ability 6… Daemonic Charm: Gorduz gains +1 WS, +1 S and +1 A
Actually, his BS did start higher, but that doesn’t follow the progression for Hobgoblin Lord from Heroes: all other Hero characters have the same BS as their equivalent Lord and I figured his base cost on the assumption that he follows the usual points progression for characters. Since there are no Hobgoblin Lords otherwise, I had to just go with the established patterns. I think you’re probably right though, to be honest.
The variable Initiative would be based on whether you think the Hobgoblin base initiative should be 2 (current) or 3.
Hobgoblins do not suffer the low BS of other Greenskins simply because they are meant to be more shooty. So while Orc Warlords don’t get bonus Initiative, one can see from Oglah Khan and Ghazak Khan that Hobgoblins do, in fact, get increased BS.
Now, if he is supposed to be even a step above a Hobgoblin Assassin Hero, then you might increase it a bit from there… but, the fact that you have some stats that are lower than those of a Hobgoblin Assassin is notably strange.
But, then again, Assassins can’t normally ride wolfs and such-- so really, he doesn’t seem much like he should be the leader of infantry rogue Hobgoblins.
Hobgoblins do not suffer the low BS of other Greenskins simply because they are meant to be more shooty. So while Orc Warlords don't get bonus Initiative, one can see from Oglah Khan and Ghazak Khan that Hobgoblins do, in fact, get increased BS.
Bear in mind that their stats were for 5th Edition, when characters were more powerful though. WS and BS used to rise together, which is no longer the case.
Now, if he is supposed to be even a step above a Hobgoblin Assassin Hero
I don't know what that is. This character is designed to work with the Ravening Hordes list and I'm not about to use anything fan-created to determine his stats or points cost - that's not really what I'm doing here.
As I've said, his stats follow the progression from Hobgoblin Hero to Lord. The issue with BS is that a Hobgoblin Hero's is only 3 because Orcs and Goblins don't get a BS increase (ever - a Goblin Warboss's BS is 3 too). The highest I'd raise it is 4, otherwise he just ignores any of the standard features of greenskins for the sake of being 'better', and I'm not just trying to create an uber character here.
Bear in mind that their stats were for 5th Edition, when characters were more powerful though. WS and BS used to rise together, which is no longer the case.
Thommy H
No, they were both released during 6th edition. They are both newer than the Ravening Hordes list.
The 6th edition Orcs and Goblins book shows that Orc & Goblin BS did NOT raise, but both examples we have of Hobgoblin hero stats shows that theirs DO raise.
I don't know what that is. This character is designed to work with the Ravening Hordes list and I'm not about to use anything fan-created to determine his stats or points cost - that's not really what I'm doing here.
Thommy H
The stats I gave you were created by
Skaven Assassin stats - Base Skaven Stats + Base Hobgoblin Stats
It seems to me you were trying to make an assassin-type character, not a standard, regular, generic Lord.
If you were going to make a Lord then you would start with Ghazzak Khan's stats and minus the same difference between Orc/Goblin special character Lords and their normal Lords (I can't recall what it is because I don't have the books on hand at the moment, but I did these calculations before and if you do some comparison to the 7E Orcs book and Ghazzak Khan's stats, you'll see what it was. I believe -1 WS, I & Ld) to end up with:
As I've said, his stats follow the progression from Hobgoblin Hero to Lord. The issue with BS is that a Hobgoblin Hero's is only 3 because Orcs and Goblins don't get a BS increase (ever - a Goblin Warboss's BS is 3 too). The highest I'd raise it is 4, otherwise he just ignores any of the standard features of greenskins for the sake of being 'better', and I'm not just trying to create an uber character here.
Thommy H
No, you'd be ignoring a feature of MELEE-based Greenskins, a schema that you already know that Hobgoblins do not follow because the examples you have of high level Hobgoblins both demonstrate that they have high BS.
If you'll take a moment to check the high level Orcs, you'll see that while BS doesn't raise, they get their level raised over the base Orc stats in terms of S&T more than Lords of other races get theirs raised.
No, they were both released during 6th edition. They are both newer than the Ravening Hordes list.
No, you're wrong. The rules for both of them came out in White Dwarf 231. Ravening Hordes was released at the same time as 6th Edition - White Dwarf 250.
EDIT: There are more recent rules for Oglah Khan and his Wolfboys though, which I forgot. Even so, I believe Oglah is a Hero, not a Lord.
The stats I gave you were created by Skaven Assassin stats - Base Skaven Stats + Base Hobgoblin Stats It seems to me you were trying to make an assassin-type character, not a standard, regular, generic Lord.
Why are Skaven involved in this discussion at all? Whatever he is, he's still a hobgoblin, and uses the stats of a hobgoblin Lord, like in his original incarnation. He certainly doesn't follow any 'assassin' rules - he just happens to have some slightly sneaky magic items and rules.
If you were going to make a Lord then you would start with Ghazzak Khan's stats and minus the same difference between Orc/Goblin special character Lords and their normal Lords
Well I wouldn't, because his rules are for 5th Edition, not 6th Edition. Plus I wouldn't base his stats on any other special character's stats - special characters are all unique (that's what makes them special) so don't follow any kind of logical progression that you can apply across armies.
No, you'd be ignoring a feature of MELEE-based Greenskins, a schema that you already know that Hobgoblins do not follow because the examples you have of high level Hobgoblins both demonstrate that they have high BS.
But there are no examples of high level Hobgoblins. Ghazak Khan was designed for 5th Edition, and the original Gorduz for 4th. The old WS and BS progressions are not followed in 6th and 7th edition, so I both extrapolated from the hobgoblin hero (BS 3, and BS doesn't rise from Hero to Lord in any list) and compared it to the closest thing - a goblin lord (also BS 3).
That said, I would be happy to give him BS 4, but not for any of the reasons you suggest.
Also, having just checked the Regiments of Renown PDF, Oglah Khan (a Hero level character) has BS 4, a point higher than his regular hobgoblin counterpart in the Chaos Dwarf army. For this reason, I’d be willing to give Gorduz BS 4 (although I already was before this) on the precedent set by that. Any higher would be silly though, since no other greenskin comes even close to being that good at shooting. He’d need a really special reason besides “he’s optimised for shooting not melee” (he isn’t anyway) to have BS 5.
EDIT: There are more recent rules for Oglah Khan and his Wolfboys though, which I forgot. Even so, I believe Oglah is a Hero, not a Lord.
Thommy H
Right, so there are your Hobgoblin Hero stats.
BS 3, and BS doesn't rise from Hero to Lord in any list
Thommy H
Is this true of human lists as well as the greenskins.
See, what I am trying to get at is that you can't say that low BS is a greenskin-wide trait. The reason it is low in their list has much more to do with their role.
Typical Orc Hero or Lord is going to be a big guy sitting in a group of infantry or sitting on a boar and charging relentlessly towards the enemy. Therefore, Orc Heros and Lords are given an extra +1S&T over regular Orc warriors which is gained incrimentally through the Big 'Un.
Goblins are meant to be screen fire and if you are using a Goblin lord then he is likely going to be a 'bomb'... the best ranged weapon they get is a short bow, they aren't meant for shooting.
However, a typical Hobgoblin Hero or Lord is meant to be riding on a wolf shooting at the enemy while trying to avoid melee. Clearly they would have MUCH different training than other greenskins since they are the only greenskins that utilize this sort of tactic.
So saying that their shooting skills can't get better simply because the Orc's or Goblin's do not is a foolish arguement. If you say that they don't get better because neither do the Elf's or Human's now, I will withdraw my complaint.
No, Hobgoblin Hero stats are in the Chaos Dwarf army list - they have BS 3. Oglah has BS 4 because he's a special character, which is a good reason for Gorduz to have it too, but they do come from slightly different cultures, so a discrepancy is possible.
Is this true of human lists as well as the greenskins.
Yep. Heroes and Lords both have BS 5. BS doesn't rise between Hero and Lord level even in shooty armies (Wood Elf Highborn and Noble are both BS 6).
However, a typical Hobgoblin Hero or Lord is meant to be riding on a wolf shooting at the enemy while trying to avoid melee. Clearly they would have MUCH different training than other greenskins since they are the only greenskins that utilize this sort of tactic.
Possibly, but not definitely. If a Goblin who can ride a wolf and take a shortbow (which is what Gorduz does) has BS 3, why should his be higher?
So saying that their shooting skills can't get better simply because the Orc's or Goblin's do not is a foolish arguement. If you say that they don't get better because neither do the Elf's or Human's now, I will withdraw my complaint.
Well there we go then. I've used both in examples above. Human BS maxes out with the Hero at 5, and Elf BS maxes out at 6 in the same circumstances. I'm sure there are exceptions for special characters or troop types, but the progression from Hero to Lord doesn't alter BS, so if a hobgoblin Hero gets BS 3, then so does a (basic) hobgoblin Lord. As a special character, Gorduz can be a bit better, but not by much (at least not without some background justification).
To add to the arguments: There were rules for Ghazak Khan in 6th edition (and some of the other single DoW characters). I have a pdf of them somewhere. I think they were in one of the chronicles books. If I find it I’ll look up his BS. He also had some magic items and such.
Special Characters don’t have to follow the rules! If you think he should be a good shot (personally I don’t think he should, only the Steppes HGs should be like that) then give him good BS and something to shoot with.
To critique the rules: I don’t like randomly generated effects like that bag o’ tricks. It makes him more of a risk to take since you can’t really plan for how useful he will be in the battle. I steer clear of virtually all items and units like that.
I steer clear of virtually all items and units like that.
Well that would be your call. Remember, the point of a special character isn't to be better, but more interesting. They should highlight some element of the background or personality of the race they represent - remember, hobgoblins are nothing if not unreliable.
