I saw your great Chaos Dwarf webzine and it inspired me to look up using Oglah Khan’s Wolfboyz as a Dogs of War unit. I came here looking for all sorts of stuff, including conversions. Being here, though, made me look at the Chaos Dwarf list. I’ve only ever played them once before and it was an easy massacre with my Orcs and Goblins. I don’t think I lost a single unit in that game. Anyways, since being on here, I’ve been tempted to start a Chaos Dwarf army!
Just to give you some further background, I play an All Mounted Orcs and Goblins list. The bulk of my greenskin army is a warlord on wyvern and two units of 10-12 boar boyz (w/ BSB in one unit). I’ve got a very good track record and this army can smash almost anything. I charge on turn 2 and usually have a choice of targets to hit.
When I look at the Chaos Dwarf army list, I see an even better chance at being highly mobile and smashing the enemy. Let me explain.
I usually give the black orc warlord heavy armor, enchanted shield, and a 5+ ward save (among a few other items). This gives him a 3+ armor save. People always wonder if the black orc warlord is worth it, but he is worth it just for the +1 AS that hvy armor gives you. This guy gets shot up all the time by magic and shooting. He needs all the protection he can get. The 5+ ward save has kept him from the graveyard many times.
I could go with the a Chaos Dwarf Lord on Great Taurus w/ 100 pts of magic items for about the same price as my wyvern lord (5 pts more expensive). I could get the Armor of the Furnace, Enchanted Shield, and Black Hammer of Hashut! This would give me a 2+ AS, immune to fire attacks, and 6 S! I would also have a greater point of Ld. The S and T of both warlord and wyvern would be the same as lord and Taurus. The Taurus would even get an extra attack! This guy would have little to fear from shooting. Well, a cannon ball or bolt thrower would be nasty, but all the rest would pretty easily be repelled. Not much gets past T5, but if it does, it would have to get through 2+ AS and 5+ ward save. The only thing that I would lose would be the ability to Waaagh! out from behind terrain and get a surprise charge off on someone.
OK…moving on, I usually use about 11 boar boyz in a unit (except the unit that has the BSB in it). These guys have M7 and 3+ AS. They are only WS 3 and S 3 w/ spears. The boars have S 5 on the charge, though. With their T4, they are pretty tough. Shooting does not do much on these guys. I’ve seen 20 DE crossbow bolts fired at these guys time and time again with no casualties. They are even pretty resilient to being charged. Just last week, I saw a unit get hit by a lion chariot, suffer about 3 casualties, and still win CR. They broke the chariot, ran them down, and overran into some sword masters of Hoeth. I survived the ASF and ran them down, too! Sometimes, though, they get bogged down. At that point, they tend to get flanked and die.
If I went with Two units of 10-11 Bull Centaurs w/ hvy armor, they would even be a point cheaper than boar boyz! They would have a higher leadership. They would have a higher WS, S, and two attacks! I live in the US and I am sure that my local group would use the US GT rules for bull centaurs. That means AS 4 vs missile weapons, AS 3+ if I went with hw+shield, or AS 5+ w/ great weapons. They would be S 6 with great weapons! These guys would maul on the charge. If they didn’t suffer casualties (I usually allow 1), they would still get rank and most likely outnumber. They would be nasty!
You wouldn’t even have Animosity!!! You don’t know how many times I have had one of my main units stuck and unmovable on an important turn. I would say that’s the thing that gets me to lose more games than not.
OK…I know everyone will like to pick apart the idea with various arguments that have been used against lone parts of the equation.
-What about the general’s leadership? In this perspective, the most important part of the army is in these three units (count the lord as a unit). Besides, CD are freakin’ LD 9! Try it with greenskins!
-Also, you put a bull centaur BSB in there and your best 3 units have use of a BSB, as well. The rest of the army is just distraction.
-One of these units might be picked apart or shot at or “taken care of”. If you keep all three of these guys together on one flank, you are sure to sweep it. They would have to pick which unit to shoot at. Even if they did, these guys are all tough! The lord is as defensible as you can get. The bull centaurs are tough enough that they can take it. They should also have numbers in case they lose a few. The enemy will get about one round (two if they go first) to try to shoot at you before you are charging down their guts.
-You can’t take an Earth Shaker in this list! So what? With these three units, you can sweep the field!
I’ve used this strategy with great effect with worse troops. I’m sure that I could crush many an opponent with this list. Throw in some hobgoblin fast cav and You are good to go! Use some bolt throwers to shoot at big monsters and ranked infantry. Use blunderbusses and a unit or two of ranked chaos dwarfs for your Core and a solid center. Have some throw away hobgoblin units to distract the rest of the enemy.
Hi there - Bull Centaurs can make fantastic anvils - 5 wide with full command and a bull centaur hero hit home really hard. They are most effective when you pin a unit with a block of 25 warriors to the front then slam home in the side with bull centaurs.
Wolf riders come in minimum units of 10 but add in a Bull Centaur Hero and you have a fast cavalry hammer.
The down side to Bull -Centaurs is that they only have a best a 4+ save so they die a lot more easily than most heavy cavalry to missile fire and magic.
I think you mean Bull Centaurs make fantastic hammer units. Yes, they appear to!
Do they really die that much when they have T4? What type of shooting can take down a lot of T4 AS 4+? I believe they would only get a single round to fire before either they are charged, or the bull unit is in combat.
It’s a pity that bull centaurs can’t take a magic banner.
Thats 3 dead bull centaurs and the effectiveness of the unit severely hampered
They basically die in droves to any missile fire and / or magic missiles (plenty of Str 4 of them about) and they attract a lot of attention because they move so much quicker than our warriors (I would target them early if i was playing against CD)
10 Empire handgunners shooting at the Bull Centaurs
Empire player gets 1st turn
1st round of shooting = 3 .33 hits = 1.66 wounds = 1.38 unsaved wounds
2nd turn of shooting = 5 hits = 2.5 unsaved wounds = 2 unsaved wounds
Thats 3 dead bull centaurs and the effectiveness of the unit severely hampered
Ubertechie
Hi Ubertechie! OK...Empire hand gunners are pretty common. We can use those. I still have to say that 2 rounds of shooting should be a worse case scenario. This type of army list will be charging on Turn 2, so the only way is if there would if the enemy got first round.
Let's say the enemy gets first round. It happens. Let's go with the numbers you gave. Three casualties. Why would the unit be severely hampered if it lost three centaurs? There would still be 8 of the guys left. They wouldn't get a rank bonus, but it would be enough to still smash whatever they charged (most likely the hand gunners). I don't see the problem.
Also, on the same flank are going to be the Great Taurus and two units of bull centaurs. If one loses 3 bulls, that's still a good situation.
@Xander: Thanks for doing a list up for me! I haven't had the time in front of Army Builder lately. I usually do 2,250 pt lists, so I will have a few more points to play with. I could make sure that one bull unit had 11 in it and put the hero in the other to total 11. There would also be enough points for everything on the hobgoblins.
There might even be enough for a throw away unit or two of hobgoblins.
I used a similar list for quite some time, it works pretty nice. The BCs will smash up undead blocks in 1 turn :cheers and break most people pretty damn easily. If they don’t break through however, they’re in trouble, as they only have a 5+ save when swinging the great weapons (which I always found too much fun not to :)), so I found BC heroes to be priceless. I generally had 1 with the Black Hammer and 1 with Sword of might, armour of gazrakh (and a battle standard), so the heroes weren’t swinging last. BCs are annoyingly vulnerable when they do get hit, but the damage they can do is craziness.
For the rest I would go for a block of warriors in the centre and then Blunderbusses and Bolt Throwers, as you say The Blunderbusses allow you to get to sneaky people like wood elves (I remember I once fired at a treeman in a wood simply so I could ‘accidentally’ catch the 8 war dancers lurking behind him in the same wood :))
OK…I think I finally came up with a list. Most people around my part of the world play with 2,250 pt lists. I’m not sure if it’s any good, but we shall see. Tell me if you think this is any good.
Chaos Dwarf Lord w/ Great Taurus
Black Hammer
Armor of the Furnace
Enchanted Shield
Bull Centaur BSB
Armor of Gazrakh
Sword of Might
LVL 2 Mage
Chalice of Darkness
LVL 2 Mage
dispel scroll x 2
3 x 15 Blunderbussiers w/ musician
10 Hobgoblin wolfriders w/ musician, lgt armor, shield, and bow
2 x Bolt Throwers
Death Rocket
2 x 10 Bull Centaurs w/ full command and hvy armor
Power Pool = 7 dice
Dispel Pool = 4 w/ 2 dispel scrolls and the Chalice
TOTAL POINTS = 2,221
The idea is that most of the army sits in the back and shoots at whatever it can. The Hook runs up one flank. That’s the general, BSB, Hobgobs, and the Bull Centaurs. The hobgoblins can be put elsewhere if they would be a good harassing unit or go for war machines. Yes, it is a bit of a gunline, but can you argue against it? If anything gets close to the mages or war machines, you shoot it! Shoot or magic whatever you can in the middle. Have the Hook sweep one side and then start smashing the middle units in the rear or flank. The shooting should force them to come to you. The Hook should hit them where it hurts and fast. It will need to be charging an opponent by Turn 2, but if you put it on the edge of deployment, it should be able to charge to the end of their deployment zone edge by Turn 2.
I think this list is better as a “fast taurus list”. you have 4 (5) strong fast asult units: Taurus, BC’s, Voland, wolf+bsb and Borc’s close behind. Renember you can’t have Armor of the Furnace
Ouch! You got me on two magic armors! I forgot about that since the magic list is so crazy to look at.
OK…I’m looking at your list and I am trying to figure it out. Why would Voland’s Venators be better than Bull Centaurs? They have a higher AS, but aren’t as fast. They have a free hero, though. I’m thinking if I wanted to use Dogs of War, that I would just play Dogs of War. I kind of like Bull Centaurs. Also, a unit of 10 w/ full command comes out at 255.
I don’t like a unit of 6 Bull Centaurs. I think it’s too weak against missile fire. If you lose 2-3 of these guys (as Ubertechie demonstrated) to missile fire, they get seriously weakened. If you put them in big units, they can take incoming fire mostly intact.
I think your list is the 2nd one that I have seen with a Bull Centaur BSB in a unit of hobgoblin fast cav. I don’t understand why. I don’t like it for two reasons. First, the Bull Centaur units NEED to break the enemy in the first round. It’s quite important to do so for the Blitzkrieg tactic to work. The BSB adds his attacks and his banner to give the CR. After the first round, if the enemy isn’t broken, he is needed to help finish the combat in the 2nd round. Second, fast cav is fast cav! It’s out there to distract, shoot, bait, flee and do crazy stuff. The wolfboyz with hero isn’t enough to really be an effective unit. I’ve tried Oglah Khan’s boyz out. They were alright, but they weren’t hard. I don’t think a bull centaur BSB would make them that much harder. I say it’s more important for them to stick with the bull centaur unit. It’s also fluffier.
Having experience with M4 infantry and black orcs specifically, I say that they are a bad idea in this list. They are no where near fast enough to participate in the Hook attack. If they march up on their own, they will get flanked and crushed. Black orcs just aren’t that tough. If they stay on the defensive, they will just get shot up from a distance and they are just too expensive to use them for that.
I hope this isn’t sounding harsh. I am just hitting a caffeine rush, so I am sorry if I am curt. I would like to hear your thoughts to my points, though. I’m not just bashing your input. I’m genuinely curious as to why. I’m not used to Chaos Dwarfs, so I am trying to figure them out.
I love running a Great Taurus Lord and Black Hammer + Armour of the Furnace is a fun combo. Plus the ward save is a great back up. In addition, with so many more flaming attacks these days (with all the regen running around) immunity to fire keeps getting nicer!
Plus I’ve always loved the idea of two centaur units. You might want some wolf riders to back them up.
I did include 10 tooled up hobgoblin wolf riders in the list, though, to help out. I think they would run more interference or hit a flank if the bull centaurs get stuck in a combat.
As you could see in my 2000 points list, I had two Bull Centaur Heroes. The BSB went in the BC unit, the other goes with the wolves. It gives them a great Ld value (they will fail panic checks otherwise).
I don’t like the points you spent on Musicians for your BBs or the points spent on your death rocket. The chalice is a very circumstantial item, and I think the points are better spent on 2 dispel scrolls. And with that much magic defense, having two, level 2 mages, seems silly.
Here’s my redux:
Mobile List - 2250 Pts - Chaos Dwarfs Army
1 Chaos Dwarf Lord General; Black Hammer of Hashut; Armour of the Furnace; Great Taurus
1 Bull Centaur Hero Heavy Armour; Great Weapon; Shield; Battle Standard; War Banner 10 Bull Centaurs Great Weapon; Heavy Armour; Shield; Standard; Musician; Champion
10 Bull Centaurs Great Weapon; Heavy Armour; Shield; Standard; Musician; Champion
1 Bull Centaur Hero Great Weapon; Light Armour; Shield 10 Hobgoblin Wolf Riders Light Armour; Shield; Standard; Musician; Boss
What is wrong with the Death Rocket? I’ve never played with one. Are they just not good? Are four bolt throwers considered the standard? A lot of people do the same in Greenskin armies since BS 3 is so unreliable. I thought that the misfire with the Rocket that shoots it off in a random direction sounded amusing.
As for the Bull Centaur hero with the hobgoblins, I see your point for leadership. If I am using the Hook strategy, though, the hobgoblins should be within the 12" of the Lord character. That would give them Ld 10, which is even better than having a Bull hero with them. The bull hero would slow them down an inch. I also hate to put a character in with the fast cav as the unit becomes too expensive to use them like fast cav should.
I’ve also got questions about the Chalice. Why is it circumstantial? The problem with the scrolls are that they get used up. The Chalice can be used every turn. When playing OnG, people always compare the Staff of Sneaky Stealin’ with 2 scrolls. They come out to be about the same value, but people like the Staff as it throws your opponent off his game one less Power die. The Chalice will reduce his PD by 1-3 as well as my DD, but I will still have a 2nd mage with the 2 scrolls. That should make sure that anything that they are able to cast is blocked by the scrolls.
I don’t think the musicians cost that much for the insurance they give you. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve beaten an opponent due to the fact that they didn’t have a musician. It’s only 10 pts each unit. Also, why did you stick on those extra blunderbussiers on those units? I can’t see the use of 17 or 18 of the guys in those units. Are they to keep rank after suffering some casualties? I figure that they are just sitting in the back and acting as bait.
First of all i hope you can see that my list is better than yours - actually alot better i think. renember opponents have plans too and against you list opponent “only” need to deal with the 2 BC units and the Taurus (you wolf’s are no serios tret if you don’t have the BSB in them)
my list have a few more options like hobgob’s to stall and Borc’s who also have a serios charge. So with a center with Hobgobs, Borc’s, wolf’s with BSB and Voland and BC’s on the flanks my army is much more likely to sucesfully flank the opponent.
Voland and Bull Centaurs are 2 difrent very difrent units, but they work quite well together - they almoast hit eaculy hard against WS4 against WS3 BC’s are better. There are also the difrence in armour - Voland is much harder to shoot and take charges better. That meen you place Voland on the flank with most shooting and the BC’s on the other flank.
Cav work best with a front of 6 models (that is the max you can get in on 5 model inf units) Tell me why do you wan’t pay like 80 points for “the abillity to loose a model or 2” and still fight with a 5 front ? what if you opponent can’t shoot ? or what is he shoot real heavy cannons and bolt trowers kill 2 from you unit - you 2 BC units could give you 160p that’s another unit wolf’s to schield you BC’s and another unit opponent have to deal with - and you BC’s don’t loose any fighting power at all.
First of all i hope you can see that my list is better than yours - actually alot better i think.
qwe50
Ho ho! :) Thank you for pointing that out!
renember opponents have plans too and against you list opponent "only" need to deal with the 2 BC units and the Taurus (you wolf's are no serios tret if you don't have the BSB in them)
my list have a few more options like hobgob's to stall and Borc's who also have a serios charge. So with a center with Hobgobs, Borc's, wolf's with BSB and Voland and BC's on the flanks my army is much more likely to sucesfully flank the opponent.
qwe50
My strategy would be a bit different. It has been called a "Hook" strategy. I give a defensive middle and one flank while I have a very strong offensive flank. The important aspect of this strategy is putting down the strong flank last. If you commit all your other troops and make it look like you are going with a standard plan, they spread their troops out. The last two things on the table (before heroes) should be your two bull centaur units. At this point, the enemy should have spread out his line and will have a harder time dealing with them. I have used this many times with my Orc and Goblin list and it only has 2 large boar boy units with the warlord on wyvern. While it is only 3 things, they stick together and are VERY fast. They enemy rarely has a chance to take care of the threat and is usually quickly overwhelmed. I think it would not only be the same with the bull centaurs, but much more so!
If you have fast cav, you can't really use it to screen your regular cav, or your regular cav can't charge anything! The way I play it, you are ALWAYS charging something on Turn 2. There is no reason you should not be in range to charge the target of your choice. If you try to cover your bull units with the wolf riders, then the wolves will just block the charge lanes of your bull centaurs the next turn. Also, the enemy would have to have a lot of effective firepower on that side (which means you didn't chose the correct flank to go heavy on) to really do damage to the bull centaurs. They are pretty tough!
Voland and Bull Centaurs are 2 difrent very difrent units, but they work quite well together - they almoast hit eaculy hard against WS4 against WS3 BC's are better. There are also the difrence in armour - Voland is much harder to shoot and take charges better. That meen you place Voland on the flank with most shooting and the BC's on the other flank.
qwe50
As stated, the Hook works best when you put your cavalry on one flank. You go super heavy and it's hard for the opponent to counter them. Spreading out your heavy units just makes it easier for them to do so. Also, a unit of just 6 bull centaurs is too vulnerable to enemy fire and magic. A couple of casualties and they are making panic tests.
Cav work best with a front of 6 models (that is the max you can get in on 5 model inf units) Tell me why do you wan't pay like 80 points for "the abillity to loose a model or 2" and still fight with a 5 front ? what if you opponent can't shoot ? or what is he shoot real heavy cannons and bolt trowers kill 2 from you unit - you 2 BC units could give you 160p that's another unit wolf's to schield you BC's and another unit opponent have to deal with - and you BC's don't loose any fighting power at all.
qwe50
I don't want to shield my BC's with the wolf boyz or I won't be able to see to charge. The enemy will get, at best, two rounds of shooting (only if they go first). A unit of 6 can get taken down below 50% in that time of concentrated fire. The extra hobgoblins that you can buy with the spare points just aren't really hard enough to do anything. You won't be able to charge that elite unit in the front and smash it with the hobgoblins, so the points spent on them instead of more BC are not spent well, in my opinion.
I will fully admit that my list is based on the strategy of the Hook and might not be the style you like to play or a style you find affective. I have used it with a similar list with OnG, but think the Chaos Dwarfs can pull it off better (with this list).
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