[Archive] Hashut the Fallen

Revlid:

This Hashut=Grimner would make quite a bit of sense- after all, both high and dark elves worship khaine right?

tetnis
Well, yes. But Dark Elves worship Khaine as an avil god. High Elves worship Khaine as an evil god, much more rarely.

Grimnir being Hashut makes no sense.

1) The Gates to the Realm of Chaos were never closed.
2) Dwarfs still get blessings, etc. from Grimnir.
3) None of Grimnir's artifacts or temples have soured.
4) Aside from both being worshipped by Dwarfs, Hashut and Grimnir are nothing alike. Grugni has more in common with him.
5) The timescale of Grimnir heading up there and the Great Skull Dwarfs turning to Chaos means that Grimnir would have had to have turned to Chaos in less than a century. Not particularly impressive for a god whose artifacts alone have protected regular Dwarfs for longer than that.

Grimnir being Hashut is nonsensical, and cheapens both of them as deities.

Obsidian:

5) The timescale of Grimnir heading up there and the Great Skull Dwarfs turning to Chaos means that Grimnir would have had to have turned to Chaos in less than a century. Not particularly impressive for a god whose artifacts alone have protected regular Dwarfs for longer than that.

Revlid
Well time in the Realms of Chaos tends to bend in strange ways you know! ;)

At first I thought the idea was great but the more I think of it the more it opposes me. Now if there were to be a fourth (there are 3 right? Valaya, Grimnir and Grungni?) ancestor god thingy who might have turned, and therefor maybe has been stripped out of Dwarf history, then that would appeal more to me...

BilboBaggins:

A fourth Dwarf God mutated by Chaos into the Bull Form, similar to Taraus/Lammasu/Bull Centars. Maybe even be the God mainly worshiped by the predecessors of the Chaos Dwarfs. When Chaos was unleashed he and they were mutated into their current forms.

dedwrekka:

This Hashut=Grimner would make quite a bit of sense- after all, both high and dark elves worship khaine right?

tetnis
Well, yes. But Dark Elves worship Khaine as an avil god. High Elves worship Khaine as an evil god, much more rarely.

Grimnir being Hashut makes no sense.

1) The Gates to the Realm of Chaos were never closed.
2) Dwarfs still get blessings, etc. from Grimnir.
3) None of Grimnir's artifacts or temples have soured.
4) Aside from both being worshipped by Dwarfs, Hashut and Grimnir are nothing alike. Grugni has more in common with him.
5) The timescale of Grimnir heading up there and the Great Skull Dwarfs turning to Chaos means that Grimnir would have had to have turned to Chaos in less than a century. Not particularly impressive for a god whose artifacts alone have protected regular Dwarfs for longer than that.

Grimnir being Hashut is nonsensical, and cheapens both of them as deities.


Revlid
Well, we really don't know how long the Chaos dwarfs were in the Dark Lands before they turned to worshipping Hashut. Was he always there? Did he just show up after being turned away by their bretheren? How did the fact that raw Chaos was all over the land effect time in the Great Skull Land?

Grimnir's Artifacts and temples aren't great because they're godly. They're powerful because they were made in times when magic was more accessable, even to dwarfs for rune making. Which is why a lot of the dwarfen ancestor dieties power is expressed through use of runes and guidance rather than direct contact and actions.

As much as I'd like Hashut to be his own diety (and the way he's mentioned in recent works supports that), the idea of the war-torn hero, battered and beaten, returning to ravage his own lands is very classic. Though the idea of him being a mortal follower of chaos or Hashut is more appealing to me.

Revlid:

Grimnir's Artifacts and temples aren't great because they're godly. They're powerful because they were made in times when magic was more accessable, even to dwarfs for rune making. Which is why a lot of the dwarfen ancestor dieties power is expressed through use of runes and guidance rather than direct contact and actions.

dedwrekka
Look - God > Mortal, yes?

Grimnir > Grimnir's Axe, yes?

Both of Grimnir's Axes (one of which is hinted to actually have Grimnir, or at least part of him, inside it) have survived the Realm of Chaos entirely unchanged, and have in fact protected their wielders from being changed as well. Grimnir is the epitome of a race that is thoroughly resistant to Chaos, and it cheapens him as a character to have him turn to Chaos. Plus, when Dwarfen Priests (not through Runes) call upon Grimnir, he answers.
Though the idea of him being a mortal follower of chaos or Hashut is more appealing to me.

dedwrekka
Huh? You lost me here. You want Hashut to be just another Daemon Prince? Be aware that he shows up even before Dwarfs and Elves met.

The only way I could accept even part of this is the following interpretation:

Grimnir goes to shut the Chaos Gates.
He fails, dies, and returns to the Hall of Ancestors.

While he was fighting in the North, a great shadow, black as the smog of industry and gritty as a desert wind came upon him. As great or greater than Be'Lakor, the first Daemon Prince, whose ascension was still decades in the making. Grimnir fought the Daemon-Shadow for days and weeks, eventually smiting it so hard it fled, bellowing, to the South.

In their battle, the Daemon-Shadow tore at him, and as he had cast aside his armour, its steel-grey claws met tough skin and blessed rune rather than armour plate. Its final act before he cast the final blow was to bite deep into his arm, where the runic tattoos sputtered and, overwhelmed, died out. As though empowered by the Ancestor's magic-thick blood, the creature glowed with a sudden, furious flame, sprouting horns of pure fire.

dedwrekka:

Grimnir's Artifacts and temples aren't great because they're godly. They're powerful because they were made in times when magic was more accessable, even to dwarfs for rune making. Which is why a lot of the dwarfen ancestor dieties power is expressed through use of runes and guidance rather than direct contact and actions.

dedwrekka
Look - God > Mortal, yes?

Grimnir > Grimnir's Axe, yes?

Both of Grimnir's Axes (one of which is hinted to actually have Grimnir, or at least part of him, inside it) have survived the Realm of Chaos entirely unchanged, and have in fact protected their wielders from being changed as well. Grimnir is the epitome of a race that is thoroughly resistant to Chaos, and it cheapens him as a character to have him turn to Chaos. Plus, when Dwarfen Priests (not through Runes) call upon Grimnir, he answers.


Revlid
Well, none of that is really spelled out in the background. There are very few gods who take an active, direct, or visible role in the Warhammer world. The dwarfs don't exactly ask that of their ancestors though. Grimnir also didn't begin as a god. He was mortal when he left to close the chaos gate. A mortal of the same race that was mutated when Chaos Swept through the lands, and this guy takes a stroll across the lands right up to the source! There's a difference between resistance and immunity here, and whichever way he went he's trying to go right where he'd get a concentrated dose.
Though the idea of him being a mortal follower of chaos or Hashut is more appealing to me.

dedwrekka
Huh? You lost me here. You want Hashut to be just another Daemon Prince? Be aware that he shows up even before Dwarfs and Elves met.
I actually never said anything about that at all. I'm saying that the idea of Grimnir being twisted into a follower of Hashut, or of Chaos directly, is more appealing to me than him being Hashut
The only way I could accept even part of this is the following interpretation:

Grimnir goes to shut the Chaos Gates.
He fails, dies, and returns to the Hall of Ancestors.

While he was fighting in the North, a great shadow, black as the smog of industry and gritty as a desert wind came upon him. As great or greater than Be'Lakor, the first Daemon Prince, whose ascension was still decades in the making. Grimnir fought the Daemon-Shadow for days and weeks, eventually smiting it so hard it fled, bellowing, to the South.

In their battle, the Daemon-Shadow tore at him, and as he had cast aside his armour, its steel-grey claws met tough skin and blessed rune rather than armour plate. Its final act before he cast the final blow was to bite deep into his arm, where the runic tattoos sputtered and, overwhelmed, died out. As though empowered by the Ancestor's magic-thick blood, the creature glowed with a sudden, furious flame, sprouting horns of pure fire.
Actually I like the idea that he fought his way to the gate, became overwhelmed with the power of pure chaos and became corrupted. Alternatively he never made it to the gate, he was captured, tortured, brainwashed and corrupted.

BilboBaggins:

When Grimnir gets to the gate the powers of chaos do something unexpected. While fighting the daemons the winds of Chaos splits him into two. One continues to fight on the side of light while the the darkness that was held in check within him splits of and forms into a bull of a God now called Hashut.

Revlid:

I actually never said anything about that at all. I'm saying that the idea of Grimnir being twisted into a follower of Hashut, or of Chaos directly, is more appealing to me than him being Hashut

Actually I like the idea that he fought his way to the gate, became overwhelmed with the power of pure chaos and became corrupted. Alternatively he never made it to the gate, he was captured, tortured, brainwashed and corrupted.

dedwrekka
I'm sorry, allow me to clarify.

You want Grimnir to have been
captured. Now, that's bad enough. Captured by who? Dude's a SLAYER GOD OF BATTLE. We're talking breaking Bloodthirsters over his knee, plucking Lords of Change like Christmas turkey. He fights his way up to the Chaos Wastes, in the midst of the greatest daemonic invasion the world has ever known, the epitome of Dwarfen defiance in the face of overwhelming odds, and you want him to have been captured.

Secondly, you want him to have been turned to Chaos. Let's ignore the fact that he's a GOD, and turning him to Chaos makes about as much sense as converting Khorne to a follower of Ulric. How do you want him to have been converted to Chaos? Helpful pamphlets entitled "Mutations and You"?

This is up there with "Sotek is actually Khorne" and "Sigmar totally turned to Chaos when he chased the Lord of Change into the Realm of Chaos lololol" in terms of plausibility and fanwankiness.

Gaz Taylor:

So, as a quirky and unusual origin story, what if Hashut was actually the mutated and degenerated Grimnir, corrupted by the powers of Chaos?

Ancient History
It's a interesting idea but not one I'm really that keen on to be honest. I much prefer the Chaos Dwarfs turning to Hashut in desperation to survive that him being Grimnir turning up one day saying "Wot ho, I was your God of battle but this Chaos stuff has done me over and now I like Bulls, Fire and stuff".

I would like to see the background expanded to something like the Original Dwarfs unearthed something just before the Warp Gates collapsed which started to slightly twist their minds. Once the gate collasped it found it easier to corrupt them and say if they worshipped it they would be saved. It just makes it different to Hashut being a Ancestor God gone bad or an Old One.

Perturabo:

1) The Gates to the Realm of Chaos were never closed.

Revlid
According to Malekith the gates were closed by Caledors spell, which doesn't make much sense to me. If the gates were closed there would be no Chaos energy entering the world.

Also in Malekith there was brief mention of a battle during which the Dwarves destroyed the gates of some dark citadel or other. The Dwarves in the book shut their mouths when asked who they encountered who could build fortresses to rival theirs. This sounds to me like a cryptic CD reference.

The point (there is one, I swear!) is, I agree the timescale is too farfetched for my liking.

And I don't think Malekith was well thought out.

Gaz Taylor:

According to Malekith the gates were closed by Caledors spell, which doesn't make much sense to me. If the gates were closed there would be no Chaos energy entering the world.

Perturabo
I haven't read Malekith yet but I was under the impression that Caledor's spell was to create the great plug hole of the warhammer world and drain all the energy out. It was the Dwarfs who decided to close the gate with Grimnir traveling north to do it. Or so my frazzled memory remembers the background.

Anyway, if the Gates were closed then there would be no magic phase! :)

Perturabo:

I haven't read Malekith yet but I was under the impression that Caledor's spell was to create the great plug hole of the warhammer world and drain all the energy out. It was the Dwarfs who decided to close the gate with Grimnir traveling north to do it. Or so my frazzled memory remembers the background.

Gaz Taylor
That's what I remember too, which is why I'm not too sure about the book. It could have been better written too.

In the book Malekith doesn't want the Dwarves claiming credit for Caledors success, but I don't remember the Elves ever claiming to have closed the gates before.

Damn you Thorpe!

Gaz Taylor:

In the book Malekith doesn't want the Dwarves claiming credit for Caledors success, but I don't remember the Elves ever claiming to have closed the gates before.

Perturabo
I suspect that this is the classic case where it's told from the point of view of the race it's about, so of course they are going to big themselves up a bit. ;)

I think this is one of the reasons why you can't really trust Black Library books as canon about the background unless its a source book like the Liber Chaotica. Another nice example is the 40k book Angels of Darkness by Gav which paints an interesting view point of the Horus Heresy and the Dark Angels. Again do you believe the truth as per the codex and normal cannon or the truth painted by the book?

Groznit Goregut:

I don’t see why Hashut can’t be his own chaos god. I’ve read the latest Demons of Chaos book and it talks about the various chaos gods. Khorne is the most powerful. Slaneesh is weakest, but fastest growing, b/c he/she/it is the newest comer to the game. Khorne has been around the longest and dominated all competition.

OK…so with that, where did Slaneesh come from? If they weren’t all around at the same time, where did they come from? What competition did Khorne defeat? How many other Chaos Gods could their be in the Void that just haven’t come out yet?

I say Hashut was an older god that might have battled against Khorne and lost. He was imprisoned, but was not killed. The Chaos Dwarfs freed him and he is growing in power again. I don’t think he is some minor demon prince that tried to rebel. Why not make him a god in his own right? It’s not like it wouldn’t fit in to the fluff.

cornixt:

It’s important to identify how the information is given in a book. If a character says something, it doesn’t make it true. If the book is written from a persons point of view, it also isn’t always true. The Black Library books are not generally considered canon anyway, since the writers often take liberties with the fluff.

Kera foehunter:

well last night i made a time machine out of extra house hold items

went back in history and shut the door on chaos Energy!!

you will see it in the new chaos dwarf book comming out in mid September this year

Swissdictator:

What if Hashut is a Dwarf God who turned to Chaos somehow?

well last night i made a time machine out of extra house hold items

went back in history and shut the door on chaos Energy!!

you will see it in the new chaos dwarf book comming out in mid September this year

Kera foehunter
Nice. You’re getting slaves for that.

BilboBaggins:

What if Hashut is a Dwarf God who turned to Chaos somehow?

swissdictator
That is one theory

Here are several I've seen or even thought of.

Versions of Grimnir - There are a few of this one.
Grimnir being corrupted by Chaos when closing the gate.
Grimnir being captured and corrupted.

The main problem is that Grimnir is still a Dwarf God (Slayer God).

My idea was when closing the gate his spirit was being ripped into two, one the Dwarf Ancestor God that is prayed to by the Slayers and one the Darkness within him that he kept in check but now released and manifested into the bull form of Hashut.

Original Chaos God
Was there at the begining but was defeated by Khorne and buried before the release of Chaos into the world. After Chaos was released the Dwarfs of the east heard the calling and in their exploration they unearthed Hashut from his tomb.

New Chaos God
Daemon Prince
Ancestor Dwarf (Not Grimnir)
Manifistation of the Prayers of the Chaos Dwarfs.

Of these three the first and third seems the most unlikely. I would think a Dwarf from the east fighting Chaos becomes corrupted by the winds of Chaos and is warped into a new God.