I had an interesting discussion today when an opponent pointed out that the Hellbound rule gives +1 strength and toughness to War Machines however an Iron Daemon is not a war machine and therefore does not gain these benefits (instead merely getting magical attacks). I’ve scoured the book but his RAW interrpretation seems legitimate to me. I’m hoping someone can tell me I’ve overlooked something?
For the record I still Thunderstomped the Slann and his entire unit into the ground over several turns!
I had an interesting discussion today when an opponent pointed out that the Hellbound rule gives +1 strength and toughness to War Machines however an Iron Daemon is not a war machine and therefore does not gain these benefits (instead merely getting magical attacks). I've scoured the book but his RAW interrpretation seems legitimate to me. I'm hoping someone can tell me I've overlooked something?
For the record I still Thunderstomped the Slann and his entire unit into the ground over several turns!
Grimbold Blackhammer
Grimbold Blackhammer
The iron daemon is type "Unique", which doesn't mean it's not a war machine, it just means it may have rules additional or different than whatever is standard for war machines. These are pointed out in the rules for the unique item in question. Hellbound states it gives +1 T, +1 S to war machines you put it on. The iron daemon can obviously have it since it's an option in the army list. The only exception on the Hellbound rule for Iron Daemons is that only the Thunderstomp gets magical attacks not the crew and this is spelled out. No where does it state that you only get partial benefits for being Hellbound if you're not type "War Machine". Either it can be Hellbound or it can't and the Iron Daemon can which means it's gets the +1 to S and T.
:rolleyes: I can see the point your opponent meant… but I simply can’t believe that there’re PLAYERS who’d actually not allow the increase. What kind of mentality is this…? IMHO RAI is very, very obvious here and it is a FW-Army Book after all (so some slight miswordings have to be lived/played with…there’re even wrong point costs in the book and units that can’t be bought - Overseer)
In the case of hellbound I wouldn’t take “war machine” as a reference to the “war machine”-Unit type, but as an other wording for “machines of war” in general. What an iron daemon clearly is.
:rolleyes: I can see the point your opponent meant.... but I simply can't believe that there're PLAYERS who'd actually not allow the increase. What kind of mentality is this..?
IMHO RAI is very, very obvious here and it is a FW-Army Book after all (so some slight miswordings have to be lived/played with..there're even wrong point costs in the book and units that can't be bought - Overseer)
In the case of hellbound I wouldn't take "war machine" as a reference to the "war machine"-Unit type, but as an other wording for "machines of war" in general. What an iron daemon clearly is.
DD
deadlydeceiver
Exactly. In fact, on the first page titled "Chaos Dwarf War Machines" it's the Iron Deamon that is referenced most, especially since it's what's required in order to have a working steam carriage. On the second page, the specific rules for the Iron Daemon are laid out under the title "Iron Daemon War Engine". I'd say anyone trying to call the Iron Daemon anything but a war machine (even if it's a "unique" war machine) is looking for a way to manipulate the rules to their advantage.
So if I am to continue that line of reasoning, I can also use my Daemonsmith to reroll the artillary dice when using the cannonade? I dunno…seems like a slippery slope. Though I do hope someone has something more than RAI to swing this back in our favor.
So if I am to continue that line of reasoning, I can also use my Daemonsmith to reroll the artillary dice when using the cannonade? I dunno...seems like a slippery slope. Though I do hope someone has something more than RAI to swing this back in our favor.
Grimbold Blackhammer
Grimbold Blackhammer
What's slippery about it? It never occurred to me that you couldn't use the Daemonsmith to reroll the artillary dice with the cannonade. Why couldn't you? As long as the Daemonsmith is within 3" of it. I'm not sure I'd want my Daemonsmith following the Iron Daemon around but I guess if you wanted to you could. The Daemonsmith should also get a look out sir roll from the Iron Daemon as well. Not calling the Iron Daemon a War Machine is ludicrous. If it's not a machine of war then I don't know what is. It's a machine and it's used for war. The Steam Tank is also listed as a "unique" type and not type "War Machine", but again, if the steam tank is not a mahine that is used for war, then what the hell is? Isn't it the greatest war machine ever built by the Empire? Rules lawyers are always going to try to ignore common sense and the writers intent and become hyper focused on RAW. Sometimes they can't see the forest for the trees.
So if I am to continue that line of reasoning, I can also use my Daemonsmith to reroll the artillary dice when using the cannonade? I dunno...seems like a slippery slope. Though I do hope someone has something more than RAI to swing this back in our favor.
Grimbold Blackhammer
Grimbold Blackhammer
By the way, the Hellcannon is listed as Type (Monster), yet according to the Forgeworld FAQ, the Hellcannon benefits from the Daemonsmith reroll, so if it does, wouldn't it seem beyond bizarre that the Iron Daemon wouldn't?
What I’m curious about is if the Cannonade becomes Magical - it states that Thunderstomp (and I think Impact Hits) do, but the crew don’t. It makes no mention of it’s ranged attacks (which are part of the hellbound machine, not part of the crew’s attacks) - the problem is that it specifies not crew, but specifies attacks that do gain it: if it did one OR the other, the answer would be there. But giving a definitive for both yes and no and not including an item makes it impossible to determine, lol.
I definitely think the shots from the cannon become magical. However I’m still skeptical about a Deamonsmith giving the cannon rerolls or the +1 W & T rules. More for the FAQ I suppose.
little quote “Hellbound war machines cause fear and bla-bla-bla Also whenever a Missfire is rolled for the machine, in addition to the usual effect as rolled, D3 wounds are automaticaly inflicted on the crew (or on the machine itself in the case of an Iron Daemon)”
So I think, need treat Iron Daemon as the war machine for this purpose.
