[Archive] Help with 2500 pt list

Archive [Archive] Army Lists
21

Doombeard:

@ Loidrial, do you have a particular preference with how you play your games? In my opinion you need to dedicate any army to be competitive in at least 2 of the 4 games phases and decent in the remaining two and for me it looks like you are trying to accomplish too much with yours. For me this breaks down into the below four phases

Movement Phase - Lord with Flying Mount (either Taurus, Lammasu, Carpet), K'Daai (both varieties), Centaurs and Khans
Magic Phase - Obviously a Level 4 Wizard with Chalice of Doom and Darkness, maybe a Level 2 with cheap lore (fire) and Ruby Ring/Dispel
Shooting - Warmachines, Hobgoblin Archers, Blunderbuss, Fireglaves, Lots of Magic
Combat - Bull Centaurs, K'Daai (both varieties), Large CD Units with GW or HSW(Razor Standard)

Personally I favour an aggressive combat list so I look to have my army strong in the Movement and Combat phases, I have some obvious hard match ups (MUS Elves Mainly) as it is very hard to get past the vast amount of chaff and catch those annoying avoidance units. However if I wanted a Sit back and shoot army it would look completely different. It may sound a little condescending (and I truly do not wish to sound that) but consider how you want your games to play and build a list from that perspective as I find it creates a much better version of an army list compared to trying to stuff all the fun toys into a list and trying to balance it.

Miasma
This is some nice advice thanks for sharing
22

Loidrial:

I used the list that sam585 suggested.

I lost tragically. Biggest problem was that the lizard started even if i finished first because of deploy the units.

He rushed in my face his chamaleons and destroyed both magma cannon on turn 1 with all that poison.

Again, huge turn down, after that i shot with the rockets on the normal skinks making some dmg (in the end of the match i killed both his chamaleons, but that was it) while i had to focus with the 2 hellcannons his unit with temple gueards (25 or so) and 2 lvl 4 slann inside. at the next turn he was below the 12" min of the warmachines, so even trying to cross fire he got me and I lost.

F this list, it felt wrong for me since the start.

I will try next time with 2/3 warmachines and the rest will be melee stuff.

Ah, 1 khan in the unit of hobs flee at the 1st turn because of 11 deaths and in my 1st turn he failed again the test with the unit and left the table.

The other one couldnt do anything, he was with the hobs, and for fun knowing i already lost i charged 20 saurus and face instant death as he escaped the fight too.

I didnt understand him nor liked.

23

Miasma:

Do you by chance has any photos of how the game went or could you write up a battle report with pictures? Usually when doing this I spot my mistakes and can learn from them, for example how far back did you deploy? did you deploy in a corner or stretch across the field?

I wouldn’t lose faith in the armylist straight away as CD armies are often outnumbered but good target priority works wonders, I also have problems playing against Lizardmen (with each of my armies) as they have some very good tools that counter a lot of my meta (poisoned shooting counters large monsters and warmachines very well)

24

Loidrial:

Do you by chance has any photos of how the game went or could you write up a battle report with pictures? Usually when doing this I spot my mistakes and can learn from them, for example how far back did you deploy? did you deploy in a corner or stretch across the field?

I wouldn't lose faith in the armylist straight away as CD armies are often outnumbered but good target priority works wonders, I also have problems playing against Lizardmen (with each of my armies) as they have some very good tools that counter a lot of my meta (poisoned shooting counters large monsters and warmachines very well)

Miasma
No I didnt take any pic.
I will go on and write (pointlessly) the report.

I guess I made the mistake of spreading my army throught the entire field instead of place all in the same spot.
My deployment was a mirror basically.
Ig in the middle with bsb n lord between hellcannon n magma
Hobs on both sides with khan and after them the other 4 warmachines with 2 mages

He had in the middle a block of 20 saurus + 30 temple guard with 2 lvl 4 slaans, on my left chamaleons + pterrordont (the flying dino), on my right another 3 flying dino 10 x2 skinks, another 8 chamaleons and spread all over 3 salamanders.

Turn 1
He starts and rushes in my face with his 16 chamaleons destroying the magma cannon on the right and making flee my right hobs with khan instantly, for the rest he moved stuff in front.
He put his pterrodont in front of my warmachines so i couldnt shoot them because less then 12" and the other chamaleon on the left next to the rocket. Nothing done with magic

My 1st my hobs with khan they keep running and leave the field, bye bye.
the rockets shot at both other side chamaleons (making the one on the left flee) 1 hellcannon killed only 3 saurus, the other HC + magma focused the 2 slaans for some dmg.
nothing again with magic

Turn 2
1 chamaleon leave the table, 1 called back with Ld he puts his skinks in front of the 20 saurus, next to the 30 guards+slaans. So here is my problem, if I charge he can escape with skinks and i face after all his saurus + guards, if I stay i get shot, i lose another magma cannon
Some shoot, nothing serious, some loss and that' is it. Again mo magic.

My 2nd I charge with the big block of 35 IG the skinks, he stays. Here for fun i charged with the 20 hobs +wolf his 45°positioned saurus. Some shoot, nothing done seriously, the HC still not able to make anyone run, plus now in his face they both have 20 saurus and the 3 flying ducks.
Here we brainfarted and I started with the stupid fight of the Hobs (I should just have put them in front of his face and that's it, my extremely bad) so they lose and he chase them impacting on the side of my IG!
Here my Lord that had his magic weapon rolled on 6 (2+ for wound but the 1 are on him) just amazingly in my style ROLLS THREE ACES IN A ROW AND DIES BECAUSE OF HEART FAILURE. WOW. THANKS.

Here at this point we make only another round because he had to eat, but long story short, nothing happened after, he pumped his units with spells, but the dwarves were always there testing Ld with 9, not giving a f**k about being so few compared to all those lizards.
His 3rd and my 3rd went just fast forward.

In the end I killed:
1 salamander
2 units of 8 chamaleons
1 of 10 skinks

He killed
2 magmacannons
1 Lord
2 units of 20 hobs
2 Khan
25

sam585:

So if your deployment did not look like this you did it totally wrong.



The yellow circle is the Generals Leadership bubble, and as you can see the entire army is inside of it.

Additionally the entire army is inside of the BSB reroll bubble.

The pink circles represent the Demonsmiths reroll Bubbles.

You must generally always deploy like this, if you cant get into a corner, you have to deploy as similar to this as possible. If you deploy like this it basically solves all of the problems you encountered.

Now after deploying like this, guess what your army does in the movement phase 1,2 and 3? NOTHING. You just sit there and cast spells, and shoot every turn until he is actually across the board. The only moves you would likely make is getting the hobgoblin blocks out of the way of the hellcannon so it charge stuff and that is all.

Next you don’t really want to be charging with your army, or moving at all between turns 1,2 and 3. They move to you, and then you charge them when they are already beaten by shooting. The fact that you had an eligible turn 2 charge with your slow army means you did it totally wrong. You should either not even see close combat, or if you do see it there should be no “problems” because the enemy is completely wiped out from all the shooting.

Your prophet should never be in combat.

YOUR PROPHET SHOULD NEVER BE IN COMBAT.

Nothing in your army should ever be running away including the hobgoblins. Your hobgoblins should only be running if they are no steadfast and losing a close combat, which should only be happening on turn 3 or 4.

Your khans should never be in your hobgoblin blocks. Your Khans when not in the generals bubble should be 6" away from any other unit.

There is nothing wrong with the list, you just need to learn how to use it to its full potential.

And never, ever, ever target the slann with shooting. You dont go for that lucky shot with shooting. Your target priorities should always be the eneimes warmachines first. And then maximizing the damage on his units which means putting the most people into the ground per shot. When he no longer can take a look out sire, that is when you target the characters.

26

Loidrial:


So if your deployment did not look like this you did it totally wrong.





sam585
NOPE! Nothing like that at all. All I got was your list and no other explanation.

So do I have to put everything in the corner of the table? leaving to him the entire rest of the map?

Turn 1 2 3 I dont move. Ok, he was still able to shoot at me and take down 1 cannon with his chamaleons in turn 1. Nothing I could have done about scouts, he had the luck of roll 6 for start and me 4+1.

He had 2 lvl 4 wizards and 1 lvl 2, he had so many spells I couldnt keep up in the long run, and my magic was pointless (almost like his) because of that. Scrolls + good rolls (I usually suck a lot at rolling)

I dont get why the hobs shouldnt run away. They got 11 killed by skinks so panic test, failed even the BSB reroll. What am I missing here?
I would join the Khans to the hobgoblins and put the General in the main block. I always deploy 5 wide and put him in the middle front rank, war machines one left, one right. So he`s protected and in 3" of two wm, you can test it. I prefer to have the block near a hellcannon and I deploy in an angle that the block and the hellcannon can help each other with countercharges.

TheHoodedMan
This is why I put the Khan with the hobs and not alone. I still dont get at all how to use them.
Same for the hobs, why not in 10x2 ranks so i can shoot with all of them? even in that case, they just suck...I miss the point entirely here.

He didnt have any warmachines so I tried to focus on the slaan, thought was the most obvious thing to do.
He had:
3 skinks 10 each
2 chamaleons 8 each
20 saurus
20 saurus
30something guardians + 2 slaans inside
3 salamanders
3x2 pterodactyls things.
27

sam585:

Target priority are skinks and chameleon skins first. you throw all of your shots and spells at those units and either get rid of them or reduce them to the point that they are a non issue.

How is your magic pointless? You got magic for every phase of the game. you need to force your spells through like throwing 5 dice to get a level 2 fireball off, you might get irresistible force yes, but wiping out a unit of skinks with it is not a bad pay off. You got searing doom for his sarus blocks. You have a fireball from the ruby ring which you can likely get off on 1 dice. You have a level 4 with hashut with ashstorm to stop his magic phases. You have so many things to use in the magic phase against this particular opponent that it is very confusing on how you say that it was pointless.

Hobgoblins get volley fire, you grt about 16 shots in that formation if you do t move. Manuvering a long line of guys is a pain.

Your hobs additionally when deployed proper have a leadership 10 reroll. That is very very unlikely to fail.

Who cares if he killed one cannon, you have 5 more, freaking shoot him and kill him and stop fooling around.

And lastly you don’t care if he has the map, as long as you got your warmachines you are controlling the game because you can shoot him.

Your khans should have been solo and hunting down the skink blocks, or redirecting his sarus blocks. If you don’t know how to redirect you need to educate yourself on basic warhammer tactics.

In all honesty your list shold have Spanked that lizardmen army. Turn 1 you throw out a fireball at his chamelons. use you hobgoblins to volley fire the skinks, and shoot your rockets at the remaining chamelons skins, and the hellcannons at the normal skinks. After that one turn, barring really bad luck, and I mean really bad, he should of only had his sarus blocks and extremely weakened if not destroyed skink groups.

28

Miasma:

That deployment in the corner of the table would be the best bet, this means that if he spreads his lines think you can quite easily focus your fire on removing the most dangerous parts of his list that are immediately threatening your warmachines. The deployment also has the benefit that your warmachines are protected by things like Chameleon skinks early in the game as he cannot get to the flank of them from the board edge and the other side will be protected by units leaving him maybe one target which yes you may well lose to poisoned shooting but you still have another 5 to punish him with.

This deployment tactic is known as castling, if you feel that your still losing an important warmachine too early adapt the deployment and place a Rocket Launcher protecting the Hell Cannons flank as that is less points that you lose early and it removal will free up the Hellcannon for later in the game.

For target priority I would aim to pound the units in this order

1. Chameleon Skinks

2. Skinks

3. Skink Fliers

These are the threats to your warmachines, you need to take these out asap as if they get into your warmachines you lose the advantage of your list (shooting power) if by turn 2 there are still some of these left it is time to try and get your Khan’s into combat with these units to allow you another turn to tackle these threats or to start turning your artillery onto the Saurus Units to weaken them before they hit your lines.

Have you ever seen the film “The Patriot”? Think of your force as the British Firing line (although don’t move) you want the enemy to come at you in numbers enough for you to deal with them, sacrifice your Khan’s first, then your Hobgoblins and hope that the units can hold the enemy up enough to keep them off your warmachines and characters. Keep your Infernal Guard back as a mop up unit, they’re resistant enough to be able to hold up a unit from turn 4 to the end of the game unless dice goes against you.

I would personally not worry too much about magic for the time being, I’d try out a slightly different list to learn how to effectively castle your force and work out when the best time to charge out would be for this I would try something like the below.

2500 Pts - Chaos Dwarfs Roster

Total Roster Cost: 2497

Daemonsmith Sorcerer

Level 1, Metal, Chalice of Blood and Darkness

Daemonsmith Sorcerer

Level 1, Metal, Dispel Scroll, Ruby Ring of Ruin

Daemonsmith Sorcerer

Level 1, Fire, Trickster’s Shard

Dark Castellean

Battle Standard Bearer, Pistol, Shield, The Mask of the Furnace

Hobgoblin Khan

Wolf, Light Armour, Tormentor Sword

Hobgoblin Khan

Wolf, Light Armour, Warrior Bane

Hobgoblin Khan

Wolf, Spear, Light Armour

Hobgoblin Khan

Wolf, Spear, Light Armour

20 Hobgoblins

Bow, Musician

20 Hobgoblins

Bow, Musician

15 Chaos Dwarf Infernal Guard

Fireglaive, Full Command, Pistol

15 Chaos Dwarf Infernal Guard

Fireglaive, Full Command, Pistol

Deathshrieker Death Rocket

Deathshrieker Death Rocket

Deathshrieker Death Rocket

Chaos Dwarf Magma Cannon

Hellcannon

Hellcannon

Deploy in much the same way as above but keep a Rocket Launcher on the outside of the Hellcannon to protect it from Skink Shooting, the Khan’s use to tie up the Skink threats while you deal with the others and then sacrifice units in the Name of Hashut to protect your artillery park, the Infernal Guard should stay stationary and allow a turn of shooting and a stand and shoot reaction before they’re in combat

29

Loidrial:

The problem of why I found the magic pointless was that even having all the right spells, we kept dispelling all of them aside turn 3 when I was losing and couldnt keep it up anymore. I had 2 fireball, the number 2 of death, basic one, 2, 4, 6 of hashut, but everything went dispelled.

What is this story of Hobs with volley fire? Volley says that half ppl from the 3rd row are allowed to shoot, round down so 2 extra = 12 shoots, but they dont even have that rule… I dont get it.

Plus I failed the Ld twice, got a 11 and after 12

But again, now with those info I will play again the same list and see what to do.

I know that the idea is play just a list good for everyone, but im not so sure about the Lore of Metal, especially for onky lvl1

30

Bloodbeard:

The problem of why I found the magic pointless was that even having all the right spells, we kept dispelling all of them aside turn 3 when I was losing and couldnt keep it up anymore. I had 2 fireball, the number 2 of death, basic one, 2, 4, 6 of hashut, but everything went dispelled.

What is this story of Hobs with volley fire? Volley says that half ppl from the 3rd row are allowed to shoot, round down so 2 extra = 12 shoots, but they dont even have that rule... I dont get it.
Plus I failed the Ld twice, got a 11 and after 12

But again, now with those info I will play again the same list and see what to do.

I know that the idea is play just a list good for everyone, but im not so sure about the Lore of Metal, especially for onky lvl1

Loidrial
Bows have voley fire. All ranks after the 2nd (ie. 3rd, 4th, 5th etc) half the models rounded up fire. So in a 20 hobgoblin unit 5*4:
Rank 1: 5 shots
Rank 2: 5 shots
Rank 3: 3 shots
Rank 4: 3 shots

So 20 hobgoblins get to fire 16 shots in all. Very nice.

Regarding magic. My enemy dispells most of my stuff as well. But they shouldn't have enough dice to dispell everything you cast - you have more dice than them.
31

Bloodbeard:

And by the way sam585, your brilliant advice and nice tactical overview is exactly why I nominated you for Best General 2014. Unfortunately not enough felt the same way. Your an exellent general and teacher.