Loidrial:
So I’m finally back into warhammer and soon I will start to play real matches, not anymore 1k.
I have to see and understand what is the strenght of this army in a 2k list.
I found extremely satisfying on 1k play with 1 rocket and 6/8 bulls.
They both wrecked the opponent.
So here I’m asking some tips on a overall good list and why that choice.
The models i have are (but we are ok with prox some units aswell)
1 sorcerer on lammasu
1 sorcerer on foot
2 castellans
2 khan (1 done, the other one can be glued and that’s it)
20 axewarriors
15 I think blunderbusses
20 hobs
9 bulls
2 rokets
2 magma cannon (I have to build them, does anyone have the instruction for it)
2 hellcannon (1 to build)
I miss fireborns and destroyer
Loidrial:
I need some lil help with a 2.5k list for a tournament. I dont have all the models necessary to make a really good one so I will go with what i have.
I came up with this, I will like to have comments and advices about it.
Lord
Sorcerer lvl 3 Hashut black hammer enchanted shield talisman protection 350pt
Hero
3 Same Khan wolf armor spear shield 60 x3 pt
Daemon #1 fire Dawnstone + dispel scroll 145 pt
Daemon #2 death (maybe?) enchanting rod + luckstone 130 pt
Core
20 IG fc + banner swiftness 287 pt
24 blunders muso+banner 432 pt
Special
6 Bulls greatweapon + FC + gleamingpennant 330 pt
2 Rockets 200 pt
Rare
2 Hellcannon 420 pt
TOTAL so far 2489 pt
I hope to recieve some help and advices ^^
sam585:
If running hashut you need to make him level 4
Drop the dawnstone, luckstone, and rod and give them magic shields.
TheHoodedMan:
If I remember it right the khans loose “light cavalry” with armor and shield.
I would give the blunders the swiftness banner. Your 432 is the cost of the unit without command and banner.
I find a castellan / BSB extremely useful in the blunderbusses because you deploy them normally in only 2 ranks for full shooting and if enemy reaches them they are possibly no more stubborn without a castellan.
.
I also find the BCs extremely vulnerable without a hero and without a destroyer they will have to deal with a lot of awful sh…stuff.
Loidrial:
If running hashut you need to make him level 4
Drop the dawnstone, luckstone, and rod and give them magic shields.
sam585
How so 4th and nor 3rd? aside the obvious 1 spell extra and +1 on spells, what is the real catch?
If I remember it right the khans loose "light cavalry" with armor and shield.
I would give the blunders the swiftness banner. Your 432 is the cost of the unit without command and banner.
I find a castellan / BSB extremely useful in the blunderbusses because you deploy them normally in only 2 ranks for full shooting and if enemy reaches them they are possibly no more stubborn without a castellan.
.
I also find the BCs extremely vulnerable without a hero and without a destroyer they will have to deal with a lot of awful sh..stuff.
TheHoodedMan
I dont get your idea on the blunderbusses, give the swiftness to them? i just have to march of 6" the first turn no matter what if i wanna reach something, at that point with 12" i should be able to get him after, get 2" extra in the 1st round doesnt feel that much performing.
Instead give it to the warriors sounds better to me. Am I wrong?
And what with the bulls? shall i play 5 bulls + stubborn mask hero?
are the 2 daemon good? 1 on the 1st rocket/hellcannon and the other last? (for get always the reroll on the hellcannon first) or shall i drop them and play less warmachines?
TheLazySamurai:
If running hashut you need to make him level 4
Drop the dawnstone, luckstone, and rod and give them magic shields.
sam585
How so 4th and nor 3rd? aside the obvious 1 spell extra and +1 on spells, what is the real catch?
Loidrial
Hi there Loidrial,
If you are paying for a lord level wizard, you should always make him level 4 unless you are worried about comp scores. The +1 to cast and dispel makes a significant difference that you will notice especially if your opponent brings a level 4 to the table. Mostly though, the extra spell is another dice you are rolling when determining spells. Another chance for a double to choose a spell and another option to take the signature spell. Every lore has trash spells. Your ability to get the 2-3 necessary spells to give your opponent headaches depends on what you roll. It's an easy 35 point decision for most. That being said, more power to you if you can save the points and still have an effective magic phase. Best of luck with the list. :cheers
The Lazy Samurai
sam585:
Here is the real catch, only two spells in lore of hashut are worth it and they are Flames of Azgorh, and Ashstorm. As a level 3 you really limit your chance to get doubles to just pick them and you limit your chances overall to get one let alone both of them.
If you want to stay a level 3, you can, just take any lore other than hashut since the other lores are much better rounded.
6 Centaurs really don’t get much of anything done, they really are just bodyguards for the Taur’ruk.
Loidrial:
6 Centaurs really don't get much of anything done, they really are just bodyguards for the Taur'ruk.
sam585
got it for the spells, didnt know that only 2 were good.
for the tauruk how will you build it?
the unit with him in this case will be 5 bulls FC with great weapon (or shield? 2 attacks each arnt so much even considering the free hit str4 in the end with the hoof)
TheHoodedMan:
There are lots of thoughts in the Daemonsmiths Handbook how to equip and play the different chars/ troops:<br>http://www.chaos-dwarfs.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?fid=72<br><br>edit:<br>Swiftness on Blunderbusses because effectively you enhance their range by 1 " and that can be crucial. And you march 8 instead of 6 inch so you get them faster where you want them. Or you play no banner at all and safe the points.<br>Razor banner is the banner of choice for the hw/s or gleaming pennant if you dont play a BSB (20 hw/s seem a low number for me. What job can they do with that number?)
Miasma:
@ Loidrial, do you have a particular preference with how you play your games? In my opinion you need to dedicate any army to be competitive in at least 2 of the 4 games phases and decent in the remaining two and for me it looks like you are trying to accomplish too much with yours. For me this breaks down into the below four phases
Movement Phase - Lord with Flying Mount (either Taurus, Lammasu, Carpet), K’Daai (both varieties), Centaurs and Khans
Magic Phase - Obviously a Level 4 Wizard with Chalice of Doom and Darkness, maybe a Level 2 with cheap lore (fire) and Ruby Ring/Dispel
Shooting - Warmachines, Hobgoblin Archers, Blunderbuss, Fireglaves, Lots of Magic
Combat - Bull Centaurs, K’Daai (both varieties), Large CD Units with GW or HSW(Razor Standard)
Personally I favour an aggressive combat list so I look to have my army strong in the Movement and Combat phases, I have some obvious hard match ups (MUS Elves Mainly) as it is very hard to get past the vast amount of chaff and catch those annoying avoidance units. However if I wanted a Sit back and shoot army it would look completely different. It may sound a little condescending (and I truly do not wish to sound that) but consider how you want your games to play and build a list from that perspective as I find it creates a much better version of an army list compared to trying to stuff all the fun toys into a list and trying to balance it.
Loidrial:
@ Loidrial, do you have a particular preference with how you play your games? In my opinion you need to dedicate any army to be competitive in at least 2 of the 4 games phases and decent in the remaining two and for me it looks like you are trying to accomplish too much with yours. For me this breaks down into the below four phases
Movement Phase - Lord with Flying Mount (either Taurus, Lammasu, Carpet), K'Daai (both varieties), Centaurs and Khans
Magic Phase - Obviously a Level 4 Wizard with Chalice of Doom and Darkness, maybe a Level 2 with cheap lore (fire) and Ruby Ring/Dispel
Shooting - Warmachines, Hobgoblin Archers, Blunderbuss, Fireglaves, Lots of Magic
Combat - Bull Centaurs, K'Daai (both varieties), Large CD Units with GW or HSW(Razor Standard)
Personally I favour an aggressive combat list so I look to have my army strong in the Movement and Combat phases, I have some obvious hard match ups (MUS Elves Mainly) as it is very hard to get past the vast amount of chaff and catch those annoying avoidance units. However if I wanted a Sit back and shoot army it would look completely different. It may sound a little condescending (and I truly do not wish to sound that) but consider how you want your games to play and build a list from that perspective as I find it creates a much better version of an army list compared to trying to stuff all the fun toys into a list and trying to balance it.
Miasma
My main problem is that what i have at home are 60 warriors that I can prox some as blunders, I might use my old skaven as hobs till when I will finally get the models.
I have 8 bulls + hero 2 hellcannon 2 rocket 2 magma still to build,
As hero I have 1 lord on taurus and 1 on lammasu, 2 khan on wolf and like 5 different daemonsmith.
So this is what I have to make a list with
sam585:
Just do this until you learn more on how LOA works.
Sorcerer prophet lvl 4 hashut
earthing rod
enchanted shield
talisman of endurance
Castellen bsb
mask of the furnace
ironcurse icon
greatweapon
Demonsmith lvl 1 fire
ruby ring
Demonsmith lvl 1 metal
dispell scroll
Khan
wolf
Khan
wolf
33 infernal guard
fcmd
razor standard
20 hobgoblins
musician
bows
20 hobgoblins
musician
bows
Magma cannon
magma cannon
Rocket
rocket
Hell cannon
hell cannon
Proxy your dwarf warriors as hobgoblins.
Proxy one of your demonsmith as a castellen.
TheHoodedMan:
Confirmed. The list is 100% competitive.
Loidrial:
Just do this until you learn more on how LOA works.
Sorcerer prophet lvl 4 hashut
earthing rod
enchanted shield
talisman of endurance
Castellen bsb
mask of the furnace
ironcurse icon
greatweapon
Demonsmith lvl 1 fire
ruby ring
Demonsmith lvl 1 metal
dispell scroll
Khan
wolf
Khan
wolf
33 infernal guard
fcmd
razor standard
20 hobgoblins
musician
bows
20 hobgoblins
musician
bows
Magma cannon
magma cannon
Rocket
rocket
Hell cannon
hell cannon
Proxy your dwarf warriors as hobgoblins.
Proxy one of your demonsmith as a castellen.
sam585
thx for the list, I will try it, is this then 2500k? i dont have the manual here atm.
What will it be the idea of the army? How to deploy?
shall i put both daemon between hell cannon and magma? leaving the 100 pts of rocket alone for rerolls?
I guess the block of warriors is going to stay behind covering the warmachines? with the lord in it?
And what about BSB?
and the 2 khans? where should they go and be deployed?
Sorry for the many questions but i never played so far with so many pts
TheHoodedMan:
The prophet is a demonsmith, too. You can keep him with the unit back and have the option for three rerolls.
The khans can be played separately or you join them a unit. As long as they are in there they cannot be singled out for bs based fire.
Best is you set it up on the table before you play to get an idea. I would keep the HC on the flanks for protection normally.
Loidrial:
Then some deploy like this? Im scared to leave unprotected like that the lord
Shall i just sit back for the entire game? how will i deal with fights?
and for those annopying skinks that rush in my face and kill the warmachines with venom attacks?
TheHoodedMan:
Thats the problem with warhammer. Theres an opponent who sometimes wants to win, too ;-).
Sure you will have to sit back. I would join the Khans to the hobgoblins and put the General in the main block. I always deploy 5 wide and put him in the middle front rank, war machines one left, one right. So hes protected and in 3" of two wm, you can test it. I prefer to have the block near a hellcannon and I deploy in an angle that the block and the hellcannon can help each other with countercharges.<br>Im not pope but thats the way I would do that. And now dont worry so much and enjoy playing. Dont take it too serious. Its still a game of dice no matter what you do ;-).
edit: Skinks? What else could you do than 40 archers and 2 death shriekers? If you worry about them kill them first.
2nd edit: There are a lot of people who love to sit back, namely dwarf players ;-). If you prefer a more active style it is entirely possible with Chaos Dwarfs, but not with 6 war machines.
sam585:
You need to just start playing to learn how warhammer works. This is how you deal with every fight:
2 large pie templates that auto panic
2 teardrop templates at str5 doing d3 wounds each that pretty much auto panic
2 str5 stonethrowers that auto panic at a -1 ld
32 bow shot volleys
Lore of Hashut
Searing doom
3 warmachine rerolls
2 Khan redirectors
AND TWO FIREBALLS
and you are afraid of skinks? The list you got is already illegal in swedish comp, and if you played in my area you would be maxed comp. The list I designed for you is playing LOA to its absolute strength and on top of that it is super easy to play. If you played any standard army that goes for balance and fun you will crush them and they will hate you for it. If you play against any power min-maxer army you will likely still crush them because they need 2 turns to get to you, you likely go first, and shoot them for two turns straight and kill all of there heavy hitters.
Just to clarify for you again, you have an obscene amount of shooting. Nothing is getting through that unless odds go out the window and the other guy packed on the lucky charms for this fight.
Lizardmen skink swarm- you have khans which can likely kill a group of skinks on the charge, you got 2 magic missels that will kill them by the truck load, you got a crap ton of shooting
Warriors of Chaos- you have khans that slow them down, 4 high strength shots to kill off demonprinces and monsters, 2 flaming templates for regen trolls, ashstrom for slowing them down more, and if you max power searing doom you will likely kill his unkillable tzeentch lord just because he has to roll so many dice.
Elves all types- warmachines
Empire and bretonnia- khans for redirecting and warmachines
Undead all types- warmachines
Ogre Kingdoms- warmachines
Orcs and goblins- your whole army counters his army
Dwarves- if they gunline it comes down to luck, if not you win
Skaven- you have more warmachines than he does, and ashstorm can take out his level 4, so ya you pretty much can easily win this
TheHoodedMan:
There is a good chance that some players wont play a second time against this list because its frustrating.
Consider your gaming environment if you really want to play max. hard.
sam585 mentioned it was illegal in swedish comp. This is also the case in ETC and the two major German comp systems because of the 2 Hellcannons and 6 warmachines in total.
It`s no fun to run against this list.
Loidrial:
Ah is this list illegal for swedish? is this written somewhere or anything? because i’m entirely new to that format and there i can play CD they use indeed swedish points…
So I have to go for something else, even because in GW milano they dont allow anything from FW because they cant earn from it…