Fluffwise how many hobgoblins would it take to overpower a chaos dwarf warrior?
Everyone is unarmed, and they are fighting in an open area. Assume that the hobgoblins would still want to fight the chaos dwarf if half of them got killed etc, they wouldn’t run away.
Also, same scenario but this time everyone can have a weapon of their choice (non magical). How many hobgoblins, and what weapons/shield would everyone have?
Finally, this time there is 50 Chaos dwarf warriors in an open area. What weapons & formation would they have, and how many hobgoblins etc. How would they beat them?
Experience-wise, strength and skill helps part of the way in a multiple-attacker scenario, like the above.
I’d say five hobgoblins should have no major problem subduing a trained warrior, provided they’re all unarmed.
As a comparison, during guard training in the army, I with judo experience, was able to keep two untrained guys from holding me down and subduing me (with strength disadvantage for me). Now, this was without strikes or dirty tactics, since it had to be withing the realm allowed by law. Add strikes and dirty tactics, and the advantage goes to the multiple attackers. I’d have three hobbos hang onto the dwarfs arms, and try to drag him to the ground, whith a fouth and fifth there to clobber him over the head. Two hobbos on clobber duty, because of the dwarf being as tough as he is. So, five hobgoblins subdue a dwarf without casualties.
If we are dealing with theory then you would have to remember that a single Chaos Dwarf would be well kept, have a belly full of food and drink, where as the hobbos would be emaciated and be next to death from starvation due to the Chaos Dwarfs greed. on the other hand if these are some Sneaky Gits we are talking about well then that changes entirely.
The Hobgoblins even though they are given a bit more above the other slaves but they are still slaves and are treated as such
Normally you’d say a one on one ratio would be kinda correct, thus these are hobbo’s so lets make it 5 on 1 unarmed. Armed, I’d say, the hobbos would have shields and handweapons, maybe some kinda helmets, but that would be it. The CD prolly would have like some kind of heavy armor, a shield and a hw. Since his weapon is way sharper he could slice the hobbos up with ease, but if they would surround him and then jump onto him with well lets says 20 at the time, they might just win.
50 CD’s vs. hobbos? they’ve gotta be mad, I would say you’ll put all the CD’s in a circle formation and use the phalanx idea. Hobbos don’t stand a chance, unless ofcourse they would be with at least 1000 and they would hop on the CDs all at the exact same moment, thus being able to stab them down. 20 v 1 ratio might do the trick there aswell, though planning a jump with 1000 hobbos at the same moment is like riding a crazed Great Taurus, with no hands on the leashes whilst sitting face pointing backwards. Thats practicly impossible ;D
so that proves the Hobbos have zero discipline you went from a 1:1 to 1:5 to 50:1000. my math may be off a little bit but there is no constant there, cept Hobbos get worse the more there are. Curious. Glad I aint a cat
I would say that it may take half a dozen hobgoblins to beat a Chaos Dwarf warrior. After all, the Chaos Dwarf is tougher by nature, they have a good centre of gravity, the hobgoblins have been emaciated (though that may mean a few more would be necessary), the Chaos Dwarf has been trained and would be experienced etc. He is likely a very good hand to hand combatant and Dwarfs are famed brawlers. Thinking about it, it may take 8-10 hobgoblins. They’re not the best co-ordinated of creatures either, which would work against them.
A Chaos Dwarf would likely have heavy armour, shield and hand weapon. I’d imagine that the hobgoblins may get crude/poor quality spears, mayhaps skullcaps, the odd basic helm, occasionally a shield made of wicker/bones/hide/rotted and poor strength wood or something. Considering their lack of cohesion, they could still be screwed. I’d imagine that the ratio would increase slightly, so maybe a dozen, but no more than 15 at best (for ordinary warrior and hobgoblins).
For 50 Chaos Dwarfs? I’d think it would be something like heavy armour and shields, with blunderbussers behind (in three ranks, for fire, step back, next rank fire etc) in a circular formation, with more hand weapon and shield warriors inside to replace and fallen and for when the enemy meets. In this scenario, I’d agree that it would take a lot more, mostly due to the ranged weapons use. So, thinking of the same armament for the hobgoblins as the last scenario, maybe some fur/hide armours as well, I’d imagine that it could take at least 1,000 to get any decent number to actually come into contact with the Chaos Dwarfs. Let’s say 35 Hand Weapon and Shield and 15 with blunderbuss. Thinking fo ti like that makes me think it’d actually take a lot less to get into combat, sorry. Let’s say each blunderbusser can kill 5 hobgoblins before they get into combat: that’s 75 hobgoblins. Based upon the statistics I gave above for hand weapon and shield versus hobgoblin (we’ll use the lower end due to sheer mass of numbers and any extra stuff/armour they may have) that makes 420 more dead. Now, the blunderbussers might kill some in close combat too… Lack of shield, but heavy armour and hand weapon, we’ll say: maybe 5 or 6, bringing an extra 75-90 dead hobgbolins. Overall, that seems to be about 570-585 hobgoblins. That works out to be 11-12 times as many as themselves. Sounds fairly reasonable, if a large number for 50 to beat, but bearing in mind the abilities and strengths and weaknesses and arms and armaments, etc, it makes sense to me…
If the 1 CD had a blunderbuss, hand weapon and shield he could take out a few as they ran up to him.
But then if the hobgoblins had bows they could stand in a big circle and shoot at him from a nice safe distance! Of course 99% would miss and ‘accidently’ kill each other
If the 1 CD had a blunderbuss, hand weapon and shield he could take out a few as they ran up to him.
Grimstonefire
Actually only one. As they would be coming in from different sides. Though before they decide who gets to make the first move...
I could probably agree with the 5, 6, 7-8 Hobbos in unarmed combat. Depends a bit, but the major problem for the dwarf is that he needs to "protect his back". Pretty much just enough Hobboas that he can't keep them all at bay. I would probably say that with weapons it might actually take LESS Hobbos. Because you only need one good stab in the neck/back. And that's difficult to defend against.
50 CDs? That gets pretty difficult but I think the Hobbos need to significantly outnumber the CDs. 5-6 times at least, probably even more as they'd form a shieldwall (or so I'd imagine). Now if the Hobbos were suicidal and coordinated they could probably get away with less as you could swamp them in an initial rush of "gunfodder".
I think it depends on the quality of the warrior. A veteran would be able to take on many enemies, and he would probably weigh as much as 3 hobgoblins.
Dwarfs of all kinds have thick muscles, plus the heavy armour, so he would also be able to take a fair bit of punishment. Hobgoblins on the other hand I imagine would be easy to wound seriously (armed or unarmed).
If he had a blunderbuss/ pistol etc as well he could take out a couple, depending on how far away they were to start with and how long it takes to reload.
I’m tempted to say maybe 6 unarmed, more like 12 armed. Against 50 I would have the CD formed into a circle (in open ground), 15 armed with blunderbusses, pistols and heavy armour. These would stand in the middle of the circle. Another 10 or so in really heavy armour (chaos/ gromril etc), with hand weapon and shield, and the remainder armed with hand weapon and shield but only in heavy armour. Too many in chaos armour could tire quicker if the battle took days.
The chaos armoured guys would be spaced evenly around, but would be able to leave the formation when necessary to run down survivors. The other warriors would stay locked in a shield wall.
Against this I think you would need maybe 400 hobgoblins on foot, another 50 on wolves. The wolf riders would be armed with bows, spears, HW and shields.
Maybe 50 hobgoblins armed with bows, 300 or so with spears, hand weapons, shields and light armour. 50 sneaky gits with 2 poisoned weapons.
The wolf riders would circle them for a while shooting, and the hobgobbos on foot with bows would shoot at the enemy right up until the hobgoblin infantry hit (maybe a little bit afterwards as well ;).
The spear ones would try and destroy all the enemy shields, then just try and hack their way through. If the circle breaks the hobgoblins and sneaky gits especially would swarm at that point, then if the CD try and retreat somewhere the wolf riders could run them down.
I would be curious btw if anyone was interested enough to test this, assuming everyone was unbreakable. See how many it takes to kill all 50.
I dont know if any of you have read any of the Times of Legends books but yeah if you have someone like Zhatan the Black or Astragoth either one could probably cleave through an entire force of hobgoblins without breaking a sweat.
also depends on what the hobgobbos bring to the fight if they have have a cheiftain, if they start squabling amongst eachother or if they have something special like this
just adding on what Grim said about the quality of the warrior
I would say that it may take half a dozen hobgoblins to beat a Chaos Dwarf warrior. After all, the Chaos Dwarf is tougher by nature, they have a good centre of gravity, the hobgoblins have been emaciated (though that may mean a few more would be necessary), the Chaos Dwarf has been trained and would be experienced etc. He is likely a very good hand to hand combatant and Dwarfs are famed brawlers. Thinking about it, it may take 8-10 hobgoblins. They're not the best co-ordinated of creatures either, which would work against them.
A Chaos Dwarf would likely have heavy armour, shield and hand weapon. I'd imagine that the hobgoblins may get crude/poor quality spears, mayhaps skullcaps, the odd basic helm, occasionally a shield made of wicker/bones/hide/rotted and poor strength wood or something. Considering their lack of cohesion, they could still be screwed. I'd imagine that the ratio would increase slightly, so maybe a dozen, but no more than 15 at best (for ordinary warrior and hobgoblins).
For 50 Chaos Dwarfs? I'd think it would be something like heavy armour and shields, with blunderbussers behind (in three ranks, for fire, step back, next rank fire etc) in a circular formation, with more hand weapon and shield warriors inside to replace and fallen and for when the enemy meets. In this scenario, I'd agree that it would take a lot more, mostly due to the ranged weapons use. So, thinking of the same armament for the hobgoblins as the last scenario, maybe some fur/hide armours as well, I'd imagine that it could take at least 1,000 to get any decent number to actually come into contact with the Chaos Dwarfs. Let's say 35 Hand Weapon and Shield and 15 with blunderbuss. Thinking fo ti like that makes me think it'd actually take a lot less to get into combat, sorry. Let's say each blunderbusser can kill 5 hobgoblins before they get into combat: that's 75 hobgoblins. Based upon the statistics I gave above for hand weapon and shield versus hobgoblin (we'll use the lower end due to sheer mass of numbers and any extra stuff/armour they may have) that makes 420 more dead. Now, the blunderbussers might kill some in close combat too... Lack of shield, but heavy armour and hand weapon, we'll say: maybe 5 or 6, bringing an extra 75-90 dead hobgbolins. Overall, that seems to be about 570-585 hobgoblins. That works out to be 11-12 times as many as themselves. Sounds fairly reasonable, if a large number for 50 to beat, but bearing in mind the abilities and strengths and weaknesses and arms and armaments, etc, it makes sense to me...
Hashut's Blessing
I agree with this analysis the most, however, it fails to take into consideration a very basic ideal when making such a comparison.
Hashut's Blessing has accentuated that by himself, a chaos dwarf warrior is vulnerable to being overwhelmed by the masses swarming him. He has then explained that the best way to combat a mob outnumbering 50 chaos dwarves 50 to 1 or greater is to protect all flanks by assembling in a ring defensive formation. Now, if any of you have done any sort of shield wall fighting with actual swords, spears, axes and shields you will understand where I am coming from.
A proper shield wall against a swarm of enemies who are barely trained as a whole with basic weapons verses a trained military force with solid, reliable weapons and armour willr epulse the masses easily every time. Why? Simple really. SPACE. We've deduced that you'd need 5-10 hobgoblins to take down a single chaos dwarf warrior but ina shield formation where yopur shield covers one side and the hand weapon the other and then your shield side is also conversely covered by the persons weapon standing next to you the hobgoblins just can't bring their numbers to bear. If you're exceedingly lucky, it'd be 3 hobgoblins verse 1 Chaos Dwarf and then you have superior training kicking in and a slaughter to begin. 50 Chaos Dwarves in a 2 rank circle without missile weapons with the dead in teh front being replaced by those in the rear and eventually if the hoards keep coming and get lucky, a single ring of warriors stepping together and getting smaller and smaller as their numbers drop would occur. Assuming of course that the chaos dwarves don't form a punch group to break out first.
I don't see 1,000 hobgoblins killing 50 chaos dwarves. In real combat those hobbo's don't stand a chance.
Now, if we talk about the chaos dwarves in the hobgoblin empire - you know that millions strong plains empire of hobgoblins can't remember where but onwards beyond stuff heh - then the fact the hobbo's are trained warriors and raiders and all are mounted on giant wolves, well bows have a greater range then blunderbusses, keep the distance and shoot those dwarves to death. Easy really.
The Chaos Dwarves aren’t going to betray each other why would they? After all, together they live a life of seeming luxury thanks to all this free slave labour they seem to have.
I still think the a hero vs hero would be a better match up
throw them in a ogre pit and let them fight it out.
I say no armor and knife fight this would take it to where it needed
now we have to hero i think it be like a rocky vs clubber lang
with the hobgoblin winning
Auretious: I did vaguely consider that they would create a shield wall, preventing so many hobgoblins arriving at once, but decided to keep things a little simpler since my post was getting so huge, lol I think the bows that the hobgoblins might have would be countered by the number of hobgoblins able to get into the actual fight and it might work our about the same… Well, I’m only saying that because I can’t be bothered to think of it in more detail.
One CD could take maybe 5 unarmed hob-gobbo’s. Armed he could take on 12-15. Fifty CD could take on 850-950 Hob-Gobbos. Does this mean that Hob Gobbo-s should be 1/8 points.
I think the bows that the hobgoblins might have would be countered by the number of hobgoblins able to get into the actual fight and it might work our about the same… Well, I’m only saying that because I can’t be bothered to think of it in more detail.