ChungEssence:
Wait, so does that mean that the SOM Sabretusks get stomp attacks?
Meanwhile the Ogre Kingdom’s ones can RAW get stomp attacked?
Thommy H:
Yes to both questions.
Baggronor:
why do you anglo-saxons always have to have a precedence? we germano-bavarians always go strict by the rulesI'm only half Anglo-Saxon! And as FW haven't ruled either way in writing its kinda tricky. I'd be ok with it either way, I just don't look forward to explaining to everyone I play that they are Monstrous despite being cavalry-sized. It'll raise eyebrows. Hopefully FW will clarify.
T5 and 3W does sound awfully tough for a cav-sized trooper model though. Would make BCs much better if they do allow it.
khedyarl:
Alright, I’ve played four games now, so I think I can put my thoughts out, as each game went relatively similarly {didn’t seem to be any outlying moments, aside from the Hellheart on my Prophet riding Lamassu, both of which died).
Thoughts on individual units:
Infernal Guard:
I think they are solid. 12 points appears to be about right for what they are, though I do agree that the weapon choices need to be recosted. They’ve acted as a very, very solid brick {being led by the castellan with armour of Bahzrakh giving them stubborn} that is almost impossible to remove (at thirty strong) without either some luck, or a hugely concerted attack. They’ve kept things in combat from big units of ironguts, to Chaos chosen, (and a unit of twenty swordmasters which I can certainly say I’m no longer afraid of in combat). They are an incredible core choice, but again, the weapon options make them very limited, and make it almost impossible to play them as anything but an anchor - though I did play around with a unit of 24 Fireglaives, and I wanted so badly for them to do well, they were simply not worth their points.
Prophet on Lamassu:
Hilarious, fun, and expensive as hell. Having a Wizard riding a wizard causes all kinds of expensive problems for us, and I probably wouldn’t normally take the unit given it’s massive points, but I love my Lamassu far too much to not take him. So, that’s my one guilty pleasure, albeit a big one.
That said, having access to lore of Shadow, AND Hashut makes for a pretty deadly unit of Infernal Guard, hand weapons or not.
Bull Centaurs:
I tried Kdaii my first game (six strong), lost a few from the toughness test, ran up against ogres/Chaos warriors, and had the poor little Daemon buggers annihilated. They seem like they would be great against elves, Empire, or skaven and goblins (although those two armies will have units that will be able to pull down the Kdaii with weight of numbers), so I ended up retiring my “Infernal golem” kdaii in favour of Bull Centaurs. Great Weapons, standard bearer, six bulls total.
This unit was incredible. Toughness five, 3+ save, three wounds, they are ludicrously difficult to get rid of, and even though given their two attacks they are generally only just winning combat, they are consistantly winning combat, and simply refuse to die. They supply us with an incredibly fast unit of very hard hitting (s6), very durable monstrous creatures. I can’t even think of another unit in the game that is equivilent. All other monster units miss out on the swiftstride rule, as far as I can remember (Kroxigor, Troll, Ogre, Kdaii, Rat ogres), I think only Dragon ogres come close - and they weight in at what, 70 points apiece? With toughness four? No thanks.
Iron Daemon:
I hated it, in the first two games I played. It would fire once, run into combat, and sit there doing a thunderstomp and 3 crew attacks a round until a character chopped it in half, or something else got into combat. My third game (Ogres), I decided to simply use it as a monster-hunter, drove it around six inches a turn firing at giants, Maneaters, etc. Being able to always hit on fives, and averaging 6-8 shots on the cannons with little to no chance of a misfire, this things is frigging unbelievable at killing big stuff. It dropped the giant first turn, moved around the line, and then started raining S6 AP d3 wound shots into the ogre line.
The fourth game, Chaos, was similar. Chaos Giant down by second turn (given that the daemon has an effective 24 inch threat range, it’s easily getting two turns of fire off against anything monstrous that doesn’t fly), then it spend the game maneuvering around, shooting into chosen units, until it finally was engaged by a marauder horde, and stayed engaged for two turns until the game ended. I’m becomming a big fan of this little train. I think we just need to play it like mobile artillery, rather than as a battering ram. Of course, it’s useful to charge it in when you think you need that little extra oomph, or when you want to do d6+2 s8 impact hits against something right in front of you, but for the mostpart, I’ll be monster hunting with it.
Dreadquake Mortar: I don’t want to talk about it. It has yet to do any damage, but I’m not even sure if that is its fault or not. It scattered 8 inches three times, then blew up in my first game.
Second game, it blew up first turn.
Third game, it scattered twice by ten inches, then was charged by the Rhino Ogre monster, and was killed.
Fourth game, it blew up first turn.
I don’t want to talk about it.
All games were played at 2500 points, and I switched things up a bit between each game - enough so that I only posted the items I played fairly the most.
Poor, poor expensive, miscasting Lamassu.
Method:
I think if used correctly the Blunderbusses and dread quake will be awesome.
Both seem a bit underrated from what I have seen so far on the forums.
We shall see…
Vogon:
@ Khedyarl.
Thanks for that summary, I’m encouraged that the Iron Daemon is useful with the steam cannonade, I’d be interested to know how the skullcracker performs.
Cheers
Vogon
Norngahl:
@ Khedyarl.The Skullcracker
Thanks for that summary, I'm encouraged that the Iron Daemon is useful with the steam cannonade, I'd be interested to know how the skullcracker performs.
Cheers
Vogon
Vogon
The Skullcracker is pretty decent, especially if you spent some bucks and give it the hellbound ability. T8, 8 wounds and 3+ AS is nearly impossible to crack, even for heroes, monsters or great weapon troops with S6. Even double cannons struggle to get rid of it before it crashes into combat.
Biggest problem the Skullcracker has are thunderstomp attacks. Charge it with 5 goblin wolfriders and it´s most times out of the game. Around 50 points versus at least 315.. A pretty bad deal. It would´ve been better if they had given him 2D6 random attacks, rather than granting cavalry and so on beeing immune to this beast.. But hey, when it crushes into infantry, there´s pretty much nothing the enemy is able to do in most cases, let alone poison mass attacks and killing blow (rendering the AS useless..).
Nontheless, the model for the skullcracker we have seen is so awesome I´ll buy one whatever the rules say :)
The Kdaai Fireborn
The Kdaais are pretty decent against regular infantry. I testet them 4-8 strong. 4 is a bit to fragile for my taste. Let them loose an Model or two until they see combat due to Burning Bright or enemy shooting and they´ll perish in the CC phase, mainly due to the unstable rule. 2 Models will inflict ca. 7 wounds on a regular infantry unit, less against anything better than cannon fodder, while they will suffer some wounds from above average troops and then there comes in passive combat resolution, which will cost them combat more often then not. AND there´s the unstable rule on LD7, which will kill the last remaining models.
So if you decide to take Kdaai Fireborn, you should buy at least 5 strong units of them, but of course you´re better of with 6. 7-8 makes them pretty devasting and a lasting force, but there was hardly ever a situation that couldn´t be handeled with 6 as well. Deploy them 3x2 and they will do fine, especially against light-medium infantry without great weapons. A juicy target for them is, of course, everything with regeneration ;)
I can see units of 4 Kdaais beeing usefull if you know that you´re up against VC or O&C, as they have plenty weak rank and file combined with bad or no shooting abilities. On the other hand, I´d leave them at home versus WoC, as they will hardly score wounds (thx to 3+ AS, HW/S and MoT...) while taking wounds and some passive CR in return, which is enough for small units.
I´d hardly ever take more than 1 unit of Kdaais, but then there should be 6, at best with maneater.
Pretty tough unit in the Watchtower scenario, btw. Flaming attacks let them reroll wounds if someone is IN the tower while they are pretty save gainst any mean shooting, cause 10 flaming wounds in CC while being nearly immune to damage from the usual flaming attacks counter units enemies usually bring.
Bull Centaures
As I always mentioned before, I simply love them, fast, extremly tough and hard hitting. As with Kdaii Fireborn, 4 is too weak, 8 is usually to much, but 6 can handle most situations out there with ease if you play them smartly.
They usually tend to win combat by 2 in most cases I fielded them. Against common infantry, they will usually cause 4-5 wounds, get 1 from a banner, maybe one from a rank but take most times none or only few wounds in return. 3 wounds mean that the damage output is reduced pretty low when one gets killed, which makes them solid and reliable.
Of course they don´t like S5 or S6 cause they depend on 3 wounds, T5 and a good AS. But as a CD, you have the right tools to avoid such combats or at least turn them into your favour by thinning the enemies lines.
I sill would like to mention the possibility of 3 Bull centaures with either GW or Spears/Shield option as warmachine hunters, support troop killers and disruption units. With 9 wounds on T5 and 2+/3+ AS they are pretty decent at this task, personaly I rather like them as a hammer unit rather than in a hunter-role ;)
Dreadquake Mortar
Granted, it´s simply a stone thrower that forces dangerous terrain tests, while beeing extremly vulnerable to the missfire chart. A nearby Daemonsmith can help to reduce this problem, but at least, a hellcannon is always the better choice. If you like the model, that´s not an argument, of course ;) A thing that should be mentioned, though, is, that a hellbound Mortar with slave orgre and mounted on a steam carriage has T8, 10 wounds, is in hard cover against shooting and is hit on -1 in CC because it is handeled as a defended obstacle. Combined with 3 attacks from the CDs and 3 Attacks from the ogre it´s almost impossible to take it out via shooting or with the common warmachine hunters. At least, a S5 armour piercing plate that causes D6 wounds is a pretty good deal even for the spent points, as it kills monsterous infantry/moultiple wound models and warmachines with ease when it scores.
I wouldn´t say it´s a bad choice, it´s a good choice in my opinion when you buy a slave ogre and have a Daemonsmith in range.
While the Hellcannon has the "causes panic test" rule and is superior in CC, it´s also more unreliable. If it runs rampage, it can cost you an arm and a leg. ;)
Loosers of the List
The biggest loosers of the LoA list are the Hobgoblin Wolf Riders and the Chaos Siege Giant. The first are too weak for their costs and too vulnerable to psychology to operate behind the enemies lines and the last is way to expensive for T5 lol. It´s less tough as two bull centaures while being nearly thrice the price with a worser or at best equal damge output. If the Giant would have been say half the points, I´d field two of him just because of the cool models.. But as it is.. It´s just the biggest waste of points I have ever seen.
zhatan87:
Some clarifications :
AND there´s the unstable rule on LD7, which will kill the last remaining models.I don’t see the link between LD7 and the unstable rule?
Deploy them 3x2 and they will do fineDo they need the rank when they have only two wounds? Shouldn’t they be deployed by 4 and 2, in order to optimize stomp and blazing body?
At least, a S5 armour piercing plate that causes D6 woundsI think that the dreadquake follows the stone thrower rule : so only D6 wounds under the hole.
Anyway, I’m liking the way you feel the LoA list:)
Thommy H:
I don't see the link between LD7 and the unstable rule?Probably a hold over from the old Daemonic Instability rules - you'd take Wounds equal to the amount by which you failed your break test after losing a combat. Unstable doesn't work that way at all, but some people still seem to think it does.
Baggronor:
killing blow (rendering the AS useless..).Nope, its immune to Killing Blow. Rolling 6s does nothing special.
AND there´s the unstable rule on LD7, which will kill the last remaining models.They lose wounds equal to how much they lost the combat by, like Undead, not Daemons. Send em into T3 infantry and they'll mow through them.
I can see units of 4 Kdaais beeing usefull if you know that you´re up against VC or O&C, as they have plenty weak rank and file combined with bad or no shooting abilities.Imo those are probably not the best armies to use them against. Poison from Ghouls, and magical attacks (likely with +1 to hit) from Grave Guard mean K'Daai will not do well vs vamps. OnGs have plenty of nasty stuff against them too: Big'Uns with choppas, nets, poison, Squigs, Doom Divers... K'Daai will do well against Empire (all those lovely WS3 T3 state troops), Elves (just watch for the ones with great weapons) and Skaven (even the Abom will go into hiding).
I sill would like to mention the possibility of 3 Bull centaures with either GW or Spears/Shield option as warmachine hunters, support troop killers and disruption units.I'm actually considering a unit of 3 BCs with a Ba'hal, just as a fast support unit to run at artillery and flank stuff like you say. For 160pts, its not too bad. I probably wouldn't take a big block due to the comparative low damage output though.
I'm also considering 30 Hobgoblins with bows and shields. In horde, that's 30 shots (hopefully with flaming sword/enchanted blades), reforming into a support block when needed. I have yet to test these though, they might be awful...
Grimbold Blackhammer:
Pretty tough unit in the Watchtower scenario, btw. Flaming attacks let them reroll wounds if someone is IN the tower while they are pretty save gainst any mean shooting, cause 10 flaming wounds in CC while being nearly immune to damage from the usual flaming attacks counter units enemies usually bring.Actually each model is only considered to be in base contact with one model in the building so unfortunatley they aren't causing 10 flaming wounds.
Norngahl
While I suspect I'll field K'daii just because they idea of them is so good, they cost more than the regenerating enemies they are designed to face against. Not a great troop but still not terrible.
Grimbold Blackhammer
Gammal:
Im really torn between the Fireborn and the Bulls…
I have to make up my mind pretty soon, seeing as I prolly wont have the time to make both models for my army, my gut tells me that the fireborn have greater potential, not only kills/points wise but fluff wise for and army.
Right now im taking the Destroyer, and the fireborn fit really well with it.
I got the book and all (signed I might add!) but its still really hard to decide!
Seeing as I dont have the book where I am right now (stupid job making me travel to denmark!)
Is there anyone out there that can compare the 2 against each other?
How big is optimal?
What if we pitted the 2 units against each other? who would win? 
khedyarl:
I would think it really depends on your local meta. If you are playing against primarily low toughness armies, then the Kdaii may be what you want. I think the more versatile, and durable, however, would have to be Bull Centaurs. The things in a block of six really are just incredible.
Satan:
Regarding the Lammasu, unless I’ve missed something he also negates the prophets magic weapon, correct?
Wifstrand:
Not quite, Satan. A model is never in base contact with itself. I read this all the time, but do anyone have a page number for reference?
Visitor Q:
I have always said that games designers should make rules based on background and then assign a points cost afterwards rather than try and arbitrarily balance things.
Moral of the story is be careful what you wish for.
While individually the Chaos Dwarf choices are really good (who else gets missile troops with halberds and plate armour?!) the points cost is obscene.
I am wondering whether in 2000pt games or under to simply skip Infernal Guard altogether and fill up my core choices on Hobgoblins with Bull Centaurs and Ironsworn being my line breakers/killy units.
A sample 2000pt army I was thinking of running was
X1Sorcerer Prophet
X1 Castellan BSB
51 Hobgoblins+shields +FC
51 Hobgoblins+shields+ FC
30 Infernal Guard Ironsworn +FC
X3 BC+Champion+great weapons
X1 Hell Cannon
A bit crude, essentially Hell Cannon holds up one flank while Hobgoblin regiment holds the other meanwhile Bull centaurs second Hobgoblin unit and Ironsworn try and steamroller through centre (I see the Bull centaurs laying on the flank charges to try and support the Hobgoblins…
Thoughts?
Incidentally I think most armies have an optimum points size. Wood Elves for example favour 1000-2000pt games while High Elves are in the 1500-2500pt range. Chaos Dwarfs I would say favour 2500+
Galladorn:
Played a great game last night vs. skaven.
Question came up over the K’daii destroyer.
In base to base with the screaming bell. His strength 4 blazing body hit affects BOTH the grey seer and the screaming bell? or just one. We ruled that it affected both.
Highlight of the match was the K’daii destroyer getting flanked by 10 rat ogres with the special rat character that gave them poisoned attacks. They caused 5 wounds on my destroyer and then he failed his toughness test the next turn and died.
And 27 great weapon wielding infernal guard, arranged 7 wide, with a castellan leading them with breath of hatred in play are INSANE!! I Destroyed soo many rats with this combo.
P.S. My opponents refer to my K’daii Destroyer as a Cow. I can’t begin to tell you how undignified this is.
Visitor Q:
Played a great game last night vs. skaven.Please tell us more, there are a few skaven players down my way so I would be interested to hear army size composition etc.....
Galladorn
zhatan87:
Question came up over the K'daii destroyer.In French, the screaming bell counts as ONE "figurine". I believe that the proper word in English is "model" for "figurine". Which means that the grey seer+the bell count as only one model, so only one hit, with the allocation described in the skaven book...
In base to base with the screaming bell. His strength 4 blazing body hit affects BOTH the grey seer and the screaming bell? or just one. We ruled that it affected both.
Galladorn:
when I get home from work will give a much better description.