[Archive] Impressions after my first games

Zhorn:

I played my first games using the new list vs. ogres and empire.

I used units which don’t seem too hot just to check out if they could work, and in what way. I sometimes use units in test games in suboptimal ways to see what they can do and what they cannot do. Also, i haven’t had a chance to play vs. the new ogres at all so extra fun and exciting games!

List

Prophet, lvl, 4+ward, scroll

BSB, 2+ AS, black hammer

demonsmith, lvl 1, luck shield

23 IG, banner of +1 movement (BSB+Lord here)

20 HG, shield, m, st.

20 HG, shield, m, st.

30 HG, second hand weapon, m.

1 magma cannon

1 shrieker

1 shrieker

6 BC, fc

K’daii destroyer

5 wolfriders

5 wolfriders

Reasoning:

Prophet costs an arm and a leg - so keeping him as cheap as possible while still maintaining some survivability was key, since we went into the main combat line.

BSB was a bit of a gamble on the defensive side but i wanted to try out the ashstorm+black hammer combo as well as giving my main unit some much needed punch.

Demonsmith to laserguide the artillery.

20 strong HG to divert and stop small threats.

30 strong HG as throwaway damage unit.

Bull centaurs to give some punch (and, well: they’re BULL CENTAURS!)

Artillery self explaining. 2 cannon/mortar machines should be able to deal with masses and massives alike. Magma cannon for all around fun.

1x wolfriders to help out the BC (screening, diveritng) and 1x for general nuisance.

K’daii because it is fun to have your own hellpit abomination. :wink:

Opposing armies:

Ogres:

Slaughtermaster, BSB, firebelly, 16 ogres (BSB+general), 6 ironguts (dragonhide and firebelly here - ouch! badass combo), leadbelchers, maneaters (scout, stubborn), mournfangs, ASL monster/stonethrower.

Empire:

Archlector, BSB, priest, lvl2, 2x 50 halbardiers (one priest each to give hatred), big flagellants, big greatswords, mortar, cannon, hellblaster, detatchments en masse, 40 handgunners.

As you can see, both opposing armies were non-optimized, with the empire army bordering on fluffy (but not tame) and the ogre army certainly stronger.

Impressions:

20 strong HG w/shields units didn’t work at all. Won’t include them again. Not fast enough to divert, not steadyfast enough to block. The ogres just rolled them and the empire army scattered them with mortar fire and detatchments.

30 strong HG worthless. Did nothing against ogres (3 maneaters ate them with no casualities in return…) and even against empire they did nothing. Their biggest downfall is their bad initiative, at least at the task i gave them (softening up the enemy).

23 IG not big enough/too big. Too many points in one place (esp. w/ BSB+lord) and not enough staying power. They did alright (eating the irnonguts w/firebelly - who died to BSB + black hammer in one fell swoop), but since my opponents assessed them as THE victory points everything was directed at them which meant that - despite being hard as nails - they lost numbers far too quickly. If the opponent has tar pits, they lack the killing power to get out of traps even with prophet and BSB.

Against the ogres they died against the 18 strong ogre unit w/ 2 characters in the end, since they were not fast enough and there was not enough hard hitting support to turn the combat.

Against Empire they survived (the champion) and preserved their VP but ultimately they got robbed of their support again and encircled by superior forces (of units as well as numbers). Luckily - since the Prussians didn’t come - night fell and they survived. :wink:

Bull centaurs didn’t do anything for me. I say “Meh!”. Good defensive qualities, but severely lacking in hitting power. for nearly 350 points they were easily stopped by even support units (handgunners tied them up infinitely, leadbelchers the same). And, comparing them to mournfang cav which is in the same ballpark points wise - uh, uh, i cry. 6 attacks + impact hits vs. 2 attacks…

Really disappointing.

Artillery: 1A bang bang. Especially the shrieker is a bargain for it’s points. Only downside is “only” strength 8, which did cost me in the artillery duel with the empire. Against armies like ogres they need some kind of guard units, but against the Empire (war machine hunters) they did marvelous.

Wolfriders so-so. Cheap enough and fast enough to pull some tricks, but once operating behind enemy lines way too unstable.

K’daii: Fantastic. Really, it is just that good. It burned half of the big ogre unit all by it’s lonesome and rolled an entire empire flank alone.

Conclusion:

Hobgoblins either as 40 (or maybe 20 w/bows). The small and cheap units didn’t work (which was to be expected, but still i had to try). And even 40 won’t do a thing against an army like ogres.

Infernal Guard. Sigh, i’m not sure what to do with them. I’m unhappy with the huge points sink with 2 characters in the unit and using them as a main battle line will make them even more expensive (think 33+characters) and will loose you some games (dwellers…). In a gun line perhaps 15 armed with fireglaives solely as a mage/BSB bunker. They performed alright, don’t get me wrong: They suffered all 3 ogre template weapons + a ‘dangerous’ forest and were still able to defeat the unscratched ironguts despite ASL. But then, that was 900 points vs. 450 points… The movement banner helped a lot but maybe the razor standard is needed, too! (Well, ironsworn are needed - but way, way too expensive!)

Bull centaurs, as written above, are a huge disappointment. The chaos dwarf list in general seems to lack hitting power, apart from the K’daii there was no serious threat to my opponents and nothing to support the HG/IG. I’ll use a single hero next time w/1+ AS and crown, for less points, nearly the same killing power and serious staying power.

A second magma cannon (w/ demonsmith) would make the army way, way harder but i want my gaming partners to have some fun, too! I have only good things to say about my artillery choices but will go with a 4th artillery piece the next time: A hellcannon. The hellcannon will secure/anchor a flank while pounding even the hardest enemy troops into pulp (well, only if it doesn’t misfire on the first shot… - but wait! It is a chaos dwarf war machine! Go demonsmiths!).

I feel the mix of 1 magma and 2 shriekers is a really good one, keeping the points cost low, giving multiple options against a wide variety of threats and still keeping my opponents from lamenting too much (“I only spend 350 points on artillery! Really, that is not too much. Remember that dwarf army from last week?!” :stuck_out_tongue: )

The K’daii is a “must-have”, it is that good. I will convert a LotR Balrog as fast as possible and unleash it’s terror on each and every army i meet. (Both of my opponents said that “that thing is seriously scary shit! Please leave it at home!”) I’m pretty sure dragon princes will become the new black around here. :wink:

Wolfriders. I will loose one unit and replace it with a hobgob hero on wolf. Better leadership, more hitting power, less hitpoints but better save. The eagles of the chaos dwarf army.

The characters:

The BSB needs more protection. Still, the black hammer is just made for our lore, so it stays in. The prophet is perhaps not a must-have, but the CDs shine in conjunction with “ash storm” (ash storm + K’daii = serious hurt! Ahs storm + black hammer = serious hurt! Ash storm + magma cannon = serious hurt!). The demonsmith is worth every single point and i would probably include him even without being a mage and able to carry the scroll.

The lore of hashut is cool and feels a bit mandatory - but then i rolled ash storm in every game, and maybe it is just the ash storm spell which is mandatory. It is huge, huge, huge. Stopping a unit from charging, making it flammable THEN pounding it with laser guided artillery is priceless. The charge-stop is gold against a slow, non-hard hitting main combat line.

All in all, everything is way too expensive. (Kidding. Not everything.) Not enough hitting power at the front lines and even though our castellans, our prophets, our demonsmiths are really good - their high points cost do add up way too fast, which leaves not enough points to buy multiple non-suboptimal units. Especially the bull centaurs (and, i assume, the little K’daiis) are really not very funny with their lack of killing power while bleeding points costs out of their ears (Mournfangs - Bull centaurs. Bull centaurs, Mournfangs…)

Since i don’t fancy gun lines but artillery is one of the main strength of the book (i’d even go so far as to say that it is rather cheap and a total bargain, bordering broken when included in high numbers) i’ll keep the artillery pieces low in numbers and tinker with bull centaur heroes and wolf rider heroes. I’ll also experiment with prophet-less armies, but fear i will miss ash storm dearly.

It seems to me that the strengths of the list are characters, and artillery, together with the K’daii (which is unfortunately too expensive to include 2 in games under 3000 points).The “true” chaos dwarf units (infernals, ironsworn, bull centaurs) are ok-ish (naked infernals) to bad/wrongly priced (every other option/unit). While looking for alternatives to the BC, i skimmed over the iron demon and it struck me that that thing it utterly useless vs. most armies out there: Against ogres it would have done nothing at all (yay! for 3 strength 3 attacks…) and even the empire would have stopped the thing cold in it’s tracks with a 5 strong unit of plain old knights. And, unfortunately, every army has access to something akin to plain old knights. Far too specialized, like the rest of the hitty stuff. I’ll try it out, for sure in one of my future games but i’m rather pessimistic about it’s performance, once the opponent knows how to stop it.

And here endeth the story, still on the search for a unit with killing power (apart from the lovely K’daii and the character killer combo ash storm + black hammer).

Xander:

Thanks for the write up! Have some slaves!

Nicodemus:

Awesome summary, thanks for the run-down on your list, background thinking and the outcomes!!

KingFisher:

I really like your write up and observation and I agree with most of them based on the 5ish games I have played with the list.

A few thoughts:

The Iron demon in Skullcracker mode is totally worth the points.

2d6+2 impact hits and 2d6 stomps is massive vs any infantry block.

I always deploy my K’daai destroyer on the far flank and the Iron demon the next model in. I use the K’daai to hit the knights/chariots or whatever first since it is M9 it is unlikely they will have a 2nd unit to tie up the train with. If you can get a cast of hatred on both of these models before their first combat it makes a huge difference.

How did you have your hobgobs deployed?

I am thinking a unit of 50 with bows and an Unit of 50 with AHW will become my standard set up. 10 deep means they deny ranks to the other side and if you keep the general/bsb close they will hold forever.

How were your BC’s geared? I use them with AHW and find they are best deployed into the flanks of other units. This limits supporting attacks.

I agree you need atleast 2 rockets and 1 MC in any list. With 2 rockets you can pretty effectively target a non look out sir model with the S8 rocket its good for monsters/chariots etc. The MC is really good for big blocks of anything but excels vs MI. The hellcannon is a must take. You combine it with deploying your warmachines into a corner for flank denial and given its close combat ability it can usually defend the others from scouts/hunters.

I really recommend putting the flaming banner on either a unit of BC’s with a hero with the flaming hammer, or on your block of CD warriors where the wizard is bunkered.This way you can get lots of flaming attacks to whatever unit ashen storm sticks on.

Also, the K’daai destroyer should be charged into the other armies general/wizard/bsb ASAP it can kill just about any generic character in a turn. Just make sure they don’t have a fancy fire ward item.

ryanamandaanna:

Great write-up, Thanks!

-Have you considered bull-centaurs with great weapons? Not many attacks, but considerably more power!

-A lot of others have had pretty good success with 8 Bull centaurs and/or K’daai Fireborn-- that may be worth a try…

-Did the throwing knives work out well with the hobgoblins?

-Does a Hellcannon count as a war machine or a monster with handlers? I just wonder if the daemonsmith’s rules will work with the Hellcannon…

If/when I run these guys with Warriors of Chaos, I’m considering counting Bull Centaurs as Dragon Ogres for obvious reasons…

zhatan87:

And here endeth the story, still on the search for a unit with killing power (apart from the lovely K'daii and the character killer combo ash storm + black hammer).
Hellcannon...

I tried K'daai fireborn, and I wasn't very impressed, even if they can be hard if you roll very often 4 or + for the ward saves...
BC never looked to me like a killing power : not enough attacks to be efficient. But very nice when playing by 3 with shield.
Finally, maybe Iron Daemon but never played it.

Thanks for the feedback:)
-Does a Hellcannon count as a war machine or a monster with handlers?  I just wonder if the daemonsmith's rules will work with the Hellcannon...
Hellcannon is a monster with handlers. I do not have the book yet, so I can't answer to you.

Thommy H:

I would assume it doesn’t count for the Daemonsmith rule, but you’d be insane not to houserule it so it does. I’m pretty sure it’s an oversight rather than an intentional limitation.

Zhorn:

I really like your write up and observation and I agree with most of them based on the 5ish games I have played with the list.

A few thoughts:

The Iron demon in Skullcracker mode is totally worth the points.
2d6+2 impact hits and 2d6 stomps is massive vs any infantry block.

I always deploy my K'daai destroyer on the far flank and the Iron demon the next model in. I use the K'daai to hit the knights/chariots or whatever first since it is M9 it is unlikely they will have a 2nd unit to tie up the train with. If you can get a cast of hatred on both of these models before their first combat it makes a huge difference.

KingFisher
Hm, seems sensible. And, reading the rules for the Iron demon of course i thought about the skull cracker upgrade (strength 6 shooting attacks hitting on 5s or 6s? Don't need that).

It is just - against ogres + brets it will do nothing at all the whole game. Against other armies, it depends on how you'll be able to keep the non-normal-infantry units at bay (i just had a nightmare about an HE eagle pinning the iron demon down...). I think it is very limited in scope and (too) easily pinned, especially considering it's points cost. But since you sing it's praises, i'll try it out next to the K'daii for sure!
How did you have your hobgobs deployed?

KingFisher
5x4 and horde (for the 30 strong unit with AHW). Near the lord, against ogres on duty to slow down the gigantic horde of ogre doom (which didn't really work thanks to a) combat reform and b) one unit being wiped out on the charge...) and against empire to help and flank the units opposing to the IG (which didn't work, either since a mortar will make them not-there-anymore very fast! Plus, 30 points detachments...).
How were your BC's geared?  I use them with AHW and find they are best deployed into the flanks of other units. This limits supporting attacks.  

KingFisher
Shield + greatweapon + fc. They are reasonably sturdy, i suppose (they survived both battles) - they just didn't DO anything worthwhile (well, against empire they killed a cannon and a handgunner detachment and against ogres they defeated the leadbelchers after some starting difficulties...). So, the return attacks were not really the problem. T5 + 3+ AS is plenty. Since i have some beautiful models (old whirlwind/tenderizer) i'll try AHW.  
I really recommend putting the flaming banner on either a unit of BC's with a hero with the flaming hammer, or on your block of CD warriors where the wizard is bunkered.This way you can get lots of flaming attacks to whatever unit ashen storm sticks on.

KingFisher
I thought of that, too. Seems a bit overkill, though. Half the army's attacks are flaming already, plus black hammer. But maybe bull centaurs to up their killing power vs. MI, beasts and characters. (As you probably read in the subtext - the ogres gave me a hard time! ;) ).
Also, the K'daai destroyer should be charged into the other armies general/wizard/bsb ASAP it can kill just about any generic character in a turn. Just make sure they don't have a fancy fire ward item.

KingFisher
Didn't work too well with the slaughtermaster. ;) (The BSB had the 2+ fire ward helm). But yes, i agree. Just stick it in there (which i didn't do vs. Empire - when it would have worked; but did do vs. ogres, when it couldn't work).

Baggronor:

Yep, your points pretty much sum it up I think. I have yet to play a proper game but looking at the list, I reached pretty much the same conclusion.

The characters are excellent.

IG are massively inefficient compared to, well, anyone. They are very well equipped Core troops with the points costs of Elites. Not what you want. I’m looking at a Deathstar of 40 simply because it’ll be serious effort to get VPs off it. Anything in the range of 20-25, you may as well not bother.

HGs are too expensive to do the tarpit job well. I’m looking at diverting units of 10 rather than steadfast roadblocks.

BCs are bollocks. 2 Attacks is a joke. Even Ogre Bulls have 3. Seriously disappointed that FW cocked up the CD signature unit. They should have been 4 Attacks and chaos armour. Who doubles the base size and leaves the damage output the same for christ’s sake?

The Deathshrieker and Magma Cannon are Win.

Wolf riders are hugely unreliable, and in an army that is overcosted across the board, unreliable is not welcome. Lone Khans on wolves are a better bet than units of wolf riders imo.

The Destroyer is IMMENSE. Its like he was sent by Hashut to save this poorly-written army.

The chaos dwarf list in general seems to lack hitting power
This is the biggest issue. Only the K’Daii (both types) and artillery can kill anything convincingly. Everything else is out-costed and out-killed.
I’ll use a single hero next time w/1+ AS and crown, for less points, nearly the same killing power and serious staying power.
This crossed my mind too. As MI, he can’t be Killing Blowed and he is far better than a unit of BCs.

Another problem I’m seeing is: a lot of strain on the Heroes allowance. This is why every other army has a fighting Lord option… x.x
While looking for alternatives to the BC, i skimmed over the iron demon and it struck me that that thing it utterly useless vs. most armies out there: Against ogres it would have done nothing at all (yay! for 3 strength 3 attacks…) and even the empire would have stopped the thing cold in it’s tracks with a 5 strong unit of plain old knights. And, unfortunately, every army has access to something akin to plain old knights.
This is the single most unforgivable bit of idiocy in the whole list - every other tank-thing out there does grinding impact hits, not Thunderstomp. Its just lazy.

The Skullcracker actually looks ok until you realise 2D6 Thunderstomp actually just means it kills about as much as most other monsters for double the points… and is incapable of hurting one guy on a horse if he charges first… I mean seriously…

I just get the impression whoever wrote it doesn’t play much Warhammer.

Zhorn:

Great write-up, Thanks!

-Have you considered bull-centaurs with great weapons?  Not many attacks, but considerably more power!

-A lot of others have had pretty good success with 8 Bull centaurs and/or K'daai Fireborn-- that may be worth a try...

-Did the throwing knives work out well with the hobgoblins?

-Does a Hellcannon count as a war machine or a monster with handlers?  I just wonder if the daemonsmith's rules will work with the Hellcannon...

If/when I run these guys with Warriors of Chaos, I'm considering counting Bull Centaurs as Dragon Ogres for obvious reasons...

ryanamandaanna
The BC had greatweapons. Just not enough attacks. At full strength they offer 13 str. 6 attacks hitting mostly on 4s. Skaven slaves (and empire handgunners) keep them occupied for a long, long time. In theory, i like the idea of a fast, sturdy "stopping unit". In practice, this unit is way, way too expensive at 350 points (especially without stubborn).

Well, despite my disappointment with the BC i'll try out more combinations for sure. But 8? Yikes! What should i leave out of the list...

The HG throwing knives killed 1 empire swordsman from a detachment, if i remember correctly.

Hellcannon: It has a barrel, it has chaos dwarfs. Handlers+monsters nonsense - of COURSE the demonsmith will lend his special rule (i hope... ;) ).

Baggronor:

If anyone tries to say the Hellcannon doesn’t get a re-roll because its classed as monster and handlers, I’ll force-feed them their army one mini at a time…

Thommy H:

I just get the impression whoever wrote it doesn't play much Warhammer.

Baggronor
Weirdly, there was someone on here who talked to one of the playtesters at Games Day and it seems as if they ramped up the cost of the IG on purpose because they were too good - not as some kind of pre-emptive handicap to get WAAC morons to willingly play against the list, which is how it appears. I have no idea what they must have been playing against to reach this conclusion. I'm completely terrible at Warhammer, but even I can think of several reliable ways to beat a Legion of Azgroh army!

MartyF:

Great write up, thanks for sharing!

To say I’m disheartend with the list would be a massive understatement, I’ve been playing around with some lists and I just can’t make it work, apart from a gunline which I really dont want todo :frowning:

Baggronor:

I have no idea what they must have been playing against to reach this conclusion. I'm completely terrible at Warhammer, but even I can think of several reliable ways to beat a Legion of Azgroh army!
Its not awful. Its just terribly pedestrian.

The worst thing about it is the internal balance:

E.g. 200pts for a str 5 Stone Thrower that has a 50% chance of detonating itself on a misfire, or a str 5 Stone Thrower that is also an unbreakable monster and is more reliable? Did I really just give the Hellcannon the thumbs up for its reliability over another choice? Says it all really.

It just could have been so good. If they had just come to CDO for thoughts, that alone would have ironed out most, if not all, the kinks. Hell, they could have just given Thommy a pile of money for his list.
To say I'm disheartend with the list would be a massive understatement, I've been playing around with some lists and I just can't make it work, apart from a gunline which I really dont want todo
Thats the worst part: Gunlines are the only really viable method - its like RH all over again.
I have no idea what they must have been playing against to reach this conclusion.
I doubt they were playing against anyone. It looks like classic mathshammer to me - this costs this much so this troop type plus this thing must equal that many points.

Edit: I'm still going to use the list, obviously. I don't hate it, I just know what it could have been.

Thommy H:

Hell, they could have just given Thommy a pile of money for his list.
They saw my price list and got cold feet. They'd need to sell a lot of Warhounds to afford me.

Time of Madness:

It is not as bad as people are making it out to be. Sure it could have been better, but so can any list (think the new tomb kings for example).

When you put it up against the current army books - Orcs, Tomb Kings and Ogres it actually isn’t that bad of a book.

As has been mentioned in this thread, where the book fails in my opinion is the lack of hitty options other then the Fireborn, K’daii and war machines. The list is chaulk full of heavily armoured and high toughness options though which can be a real pain for some armies to remove.

I’ve started to put a couple of lists together that I’m really liking and have had some success with.

Time of Madness

Thommy H:

The latest Armies books all have great internal balance though… I thought pretty much everyone agreed that they’ve all managed to strike the balance between mental new units and balanced, sensible ways of incorporating them into the game.

aka_mythos:

On one hand, I’m not surprised that spamming some of the bigger shinier center piece models is the end result of how the rules turned… this is GW even if it is WF. On the other hand I’m surprised given the price of a set of infantry they weren’t better treated in the rules… then again didn’t someone already say IG are most viable in units of 40? Some I think is coincidence, some I do think is the result of writers who may not have been familiar enough with the rules; WF was started by by artists from FW who wanted to make some big fantasy monsters… they may not be as familiar with fantasy as they are with 40k.

Grimbold Blackhammer:

SInce we’re talking about first times…

Sorcerer-Prophet (General) Level 4 - bearing the Talisman of Protection, Charmed Shield, and the Chalice of Blood and Darkness

Dark Castellan (Battle Standard Bearer) - bearing the Stone Mantle, Dawnstone, and Dragonhelm while weilding a Great Weapon

K’han Hobgoblin - riding a wolf and bearing light armour, a shield, a spear, the Potion of Strength, and the Enchanted Shield

40 Hobgoblins (Full Command) - Shields and Bows

40 Hobgoblins (Full Command) - Shields and Bows

16 Infernal Guard armed with Blunderbusses

16 Infernal Guard armed with Blunderbusses

1 Magma Cannon

1 Deathshrieker Rocket

1 Hellcannon

1 Dreadquake Mortar with an Ogre

5 Hobgoblin Wolfriders w/ a Musician

In two games I never misfired once thanks to the Sorcerer-Prophet lending his help.  One Hydra burned to a crisp with the rocket launcher, 12 Black Guard and most of a Hydra melted with the Magma Cannon, and the Hellcannon just squishing everything it touched.  Actually the Hellcannon I did NOT give the reroll to because it isn’t a war machine (I have never given opponents the benefit of the Ironcurse Icon versus the Hellcannon so I won’t claim the benefit of it here) so it scattered around quite a bit.  Over all the combination of war machines plus rerolls make our war machines better than anyone elses including Dwarves (IMHO!).

Lore of Hashut was phenomenal.  I sniped an unkillable Dreadlord with the Flames of Azgoth, I kept the Supreme Sorceress from casting half the game thanks to Ash Storm (possible contender for the best spell in the game award), and Hatred made my little Infernal Guard units really dish out the pain though I allowed it to be used in successive rounds of combat instead of just the first (otherwise it gets to contend for the worst default spell in the game award).

40 Hobbos with shields were a great investment for me.  They held the middle and pumped out 30 bow shots per round.  They were big enough my opponenet had to send block units to deal with them which kept my war machines safer.  And even if the enemy is too close to Stand & Shoot with bows, they throw knives instead :idea  Unfortunately once they break they never seem to rally.  I added a Khan Hobbo to one of the blocks for some extra punch and leadership.  He always sits on the end of the block but he turned out to be a handy speed-bump the one time I needed him to delay some very Okkam’s Mindrazor’d Spearmen.

The Chalice of Blood and Darkness - this item irritated the heck out of my opponent.  He had two magic phases where he rolled low power dice and sucking some of those away even at the expense of losing some of my own was well worth it.  Of course that was only when he COULD cast spells thanks to my good friend Mr Ash Storm.

Relying on war machines to soften up the enemy and having small elite units to take the charge was a mixed bag.  My next test game will use some K’Daii and see how a more combat oriented list goes.

Overall the army seems viable.  It’s absolutely NOT overpowered but so far I’ve seen some amazing combinations.  Bat reps coming!

Grimbold Blackhammer

wallacer:

This is one of the best threads i’ve seen on CDO for a while.

Addictive reading.