[Archive] Integrating spirits/ ghosts into a Nippon list?

Grimstonefire:

Having read a nippon list on warseer, I’ve been inspired to do a little work on a list.

I wanted to emphasise the ‘death before dishonour’ aspect (a special rule), but also bring in death and the mystical spirit beings as well as a theme.  So death and the spirit world is a big part of their lives.

It’s a fairly broad mix of things, strong in most areas except big monsters, chariots and artillery.

Consider all this WIP, including the names:

Lord

Daimyo - Mounts: Warhorse or spirit monster

Kensei - Mounts: Warhorse (can only join No-dachi on foot or mounted)

Sorcerer Lord (lore of heavens and Death)  - Mounts: Warhorse or spirit monster

Hero

Hero (including option for sniper rifle) - Mounts: Warhorse

Sorcerer (lore of heavens and Death) - Mounts: Warhorse

Ninja Hero/ Assassin

Core

Ashigaru - Spearmen

Bowmen - Archers

Arquebusiers - Handgunners

Yari Cavalry - fast cavalry, bows/ spears etc

Goryo - Spirit infantry unit

Special

No-Dachi - Greatweapons, strike in initiative order, killing blow, stubborn

Warrior Monks

No-Dachi Cavalry - heavy cavalry, with option for bows

Naginata - Full Plate armour, halberd

Tengu - Flying spirit unit

Oni - Ogre sized spirits

Rare

Really heavy cavalry on spirit monsters (could be combined with Oni)

Battlefield Ninja

Cannon

So my question, how best to do the rules for the spirit parts?

I could use something based on the undead, or daemons?  Or investigate how the wood elves do it?

Another option is to somehow work up ‘spirit energy points’ for everything (units/ characters etc) and then these sustain the spirits.  So if half your army is dead your spirit units start shrinking (but you can choose which).  Just an idea, but it links the living and dead nicely.

Thommy H:

All “spirits” in Warhammer are the same thing, technically speaking. They’re all creatures made from the stuff of magic that embody different things - Daemons are the best known example, but Forest Spirits are really just Wood Elf Daemons, it’s just that instead of embodying war or disease they embody Athel Loren. So, going by that example I’d follow the way Daemons currently work: 5+ Ward save, Cause Fear, Magical Attacks. I have a feeling they’re not Immune to Psychology any more, but that might just be because that’s too powerful for a whole army - for individual units it would probably be okay.

Grimstonefire:

I probably will end up doing that as it would be the easiest way to do it.

Would that require summoning do you think?

What I had in mind was something akin to a ‘ghost world’ in Nippon, where the essence of your soul and character determines how you will be in the afterlife.  Hence why most Nipponese would strive to live and die with honour.  If you live in sin you will be a hag or one armed mischievous spirit etc in your afterlife. This ghost world is usually unseen, but powerful spirits may haunt places.

Thus the spirits would not quite be ghosts (all ethereal), but would also not remain in the world beyond the battle.

My idea of linking the living to the dead seems quite appropriate, so I may just modify that for enforced army selection purposes.

I.e.:

Non spirit Core units generate 1 spirit point each

Non spirit Special and Rare units generate 2 spirit points (the Warrior monks generate 3)

Heroes generate 3 each

Lords Generate 4 each.

Goryo units require 2 spirit points each

Tengu, Oni and rare mounted units require 3 spirit points each

Monster mounts required 4 spirit points  

Or something like this.

Willmark:

Looks like I better upload my Nippon list ASAP!

Baggronor:

What I had in mind was something akin to a 'ghost world' in Nippon, where the essence of your soul and character determines how you will be in the afterlife. Hence why most Nipponese would strive to live and die with honour. This ghost world is usually unseen, but powerful spirits may haunt places.
I assume the Shinto worldview of 'Kami in everything' is what you're basing this on? Shinto has a strong emphasis on cleansing and purifying, so the notion of marching to battle alongside the dead does clash rather. The afterlife is also a strange one, as Shinto and Buddhism are both practiced alongside one another in Japan. Generally we have Shinto festivals and ceremonies associated with life and fertility, and Buddhism usually deals with funerals and the like.

The Samurai way of honour and their approach to death is also not a religious one, so it may work better to link any spirit units to Warrior Monks/Miko characters etc. So, for example a Lord level Miko Priestess could allow the inclusion of spirit units, or maybe allow them as Special instead of Rare etc? Maybe even a magic lore or default spell that can heal spirit units or something?

Japanese spiritualism and occultism generally revolves around 5 elements so I would say Lores of Fire, Life, Light, Metal and maybe Death or Shadow (Gold and Void are both used alongside the usual elements)? Thats what I have in my Nippon list anyways. I did have Kami units in it too, but felt they got in the way of the character of the mortal troops so kept them as Rares. I shifted the main focus to the Samurai and kept the spirit powers for the Warrior Monks (Magic Resistance, Magical Attacks, etc).
If you live in sin you will be a hag or one armed mischievous spirit etc in your afterlife.
What if you're already a hag before you die!? :)

Thommy H:

The Wood Elf model for army selection is fairly decent I think: they have a unit type (“Forest Spirits”) that are integrated normally into the list, but they can’t be joined or led by non-Forest Spirit characters (and vice versa). Mages have an upgrade that make them count as Forest Spirits. You can also make a pure Forest Spirt list easily enough.

So, what you could do is have a number of units that represent spirits or whatever, and have them separate from the mortal units in the same way, but allow some mortal characters (monks? Priests?) the ability to transcend this limitation. This gives a thematic link without having to come up with any summoning rules which, in my experience, are never that good.

Grimstonefire:

@Baggronor

I was not basing this on anything really, just making it up as I go along. :)  The mythical creatures were not my invention.

On reflection I don’t want to limit the choice of units to taking specific characters.  It makes it an expensive way to build an army that ultimately restricts lists more than it should I think.

You will notice I didn’t mention Samurai once, :wink: my version of Nippon is themed heavily on japan/ samurai but not explicitly.  Imo having ‘Samurai’ brings a restrictive element beyond just the name, things like ‘knights’, ‘spearmen’ etc you can play around with.  But mention Samurai and people expect certain things and you can’t play around as much with the fluff.

Shaman would be a good way to describe the sorcerer type.  

How many people here haven’t already done a Nippon list?!?!  Lol.  Maybe I should do Ind instead (I have some ideas for that thematically as well)! :slight_smile:

If you were a hag but lead an honourable and good life you could be a beautiful spirit.

@Thommy

The upgrade allowing characters to join units is a good idea.

I will have to try and put together a list for feedback.

EDIT:

I’ve attached the first version of the list, which is basically only showing my first ideas for what to include.  I left off the characters at this point for another time.

Willmark:

You can find mine here:
http://dogsofwaronline.com/forum/showthread.php?tid=398

Which totally got NO love here in January! :wink:
http://www.chaos-dwarfs.com/forum/showthread.php?tid=4151

Baggronor:

Quite a cool list :slight_smile: ASF seems a bit hard for human troops but hey. Always thought DEs would be good for a Samurai-themed list.

Are you keeping the Yari cavalry WS3 and BS4? I know the equipment options are varied for melee/shooting but does the low WS not kinda make that decision for you?  Seemed a bit odd as the Ashigaru are WS4.

But mention Samurai and people expect certain things and you can’t play around as much with the fluff.
Samurai just means ‘One who serves’; I think the trouble is there are many misinformed views. Perhaps not mentioning the word could be a good idea actually, and simply illustrating it through the fluff and rules, you may be right :slight_smile:

Names which may or may not be helpful:
Regarding the Naginata champion, ‘Nagano’ is a prefecture, they held the Olympics there a few years ago :slight_smile: I would suggest names like ‘Kunigashira’ (Champion) ‘Karo’ (Hero-level Samurai) ‘Hatamoto’ (elite Samurai/character) or simply ‘Taicho’ (for Ashigaru/missile troop champions, not to be confused with ‘Taisho’, meaning General). Tanegashima is the traditional name for arquebusiers (after the island where the Portuguese first landed) although it may be a mouthful.

Shinobi for ‘Battlefield ninja name’? I know it has connotations of 80s video games but its the other Ninja name. Genin, Chunin and Jonin are low, mid and high ranks of Ninja respectively, in so far as semi-fictional bad-ass assassins go :slight_smile:

And finally… Shields? Shields?! In a Nippon army?! Heresy!!

Currently downloading Willmark’s one :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye: