Sleboda:
I can’t see anything preventing the thing from charging normally, without steam power.
Am I wrong? If so, why?
Baggronor:
Correct. The bit about Engaging the Boiler says nothing about it not being able to charge or march normally, hence the constant questions and FAQs about this unit.
Why they didn’t just make it Random Movement (3D6) or whatever I don’t know.
Grimbold Blackhammer:
Pg 177. “Instead of using the normal charging rules”…
tvandyke:
I can't see anything preventing the thing from charging normally, without steam power.Seems pretty straight forward to me. Under the Lumbering and Unstoppable rules:
Am I wrong? If so, why?
Sleboda
"It may move normally up to its Move distance and fire its weapons without penalty while doing so. Alternately, it may choose to engage its steam boiler's power and move faster, but this is hardly a precise art. In this case, rather than using the normal rules for charging or marching, roll 2D6 and unless a double 1 is rolled then add this number to the Iron Daemon's movement score for the total distance travelled."
There's more there about it having to move in a straight line and not wheel as it does so. If double 1's are rolled it doesn't move at all. If you want to charge you have to declare it normally even though you have to move it as described above. If you want to march, obviously, you have to use the boilers to do so and there's some verbage about how you have no control over the actual distance moved and can accidently hit an enemy or friendly unit even if you didn't itend do and the rules for handling that are there as well. However, I think the words "In this case, rather than using the normal rules for chargin or marching" makes it pretty clear that if you want to march or charge you don't get to do so normally. The only thing you get to do normally is a standard (non march) move. I don't see the confusion.
cornixt:
It’s a little unclear because it doesn’t specify that you can’t use the normal charging rules if you aren’t using the steam boiler. FW have made it clear that you can’t charge normally in their replies to questions.
tvandyke:
It's a little unclear because it doesn't specify that you can't use the normal charging rules if you aren't using the steam boiler. FW have made it clear that you can't charge normally in their replies to questions.Charging, Marching and Flying aren't Normal moves. They're special kind of moves. It's pretty clear, IMO, that you don't have to use the boilers for a Normal move. Normal moves don't include Charging or Marching, in order to do that, you have to be able to move faster and engage the boilers. It says so right in the above paragraph. What would be the point to ever using the boilers? If I choose to make a March Move, why not just go the distance I want (which might be less than a full March Move) instead of some random, uncontrollable distance using the boliers. Without trying to be offensive, it seems obvious that the whole point of the whole boiler rule is create a random element to anything that is not a Normal Move. A Normal Move for the Iron Daemon is anything you want within 6". If you want to make a March Move (which isn't a Normal Move), you have to check that no enemy is within 8", if so then you have to pass a LD test, then engage the boilers and go a random distance and in a straight line. If you want to Charge with it, you have to declare it, engange the boilers, then role a random distance in a straight line. It says exactly that in the rules. I think the confusion comes in because people are thinking Marching and Charging are a type of Normal move but they're not. There's only one kind of Normal move and that's on the ground with your basic distance allowance.
cornixt
Thommy H:
It might or might not be worth pointing out that an Iron Deamon’s hypothetical charge would actually be the same distance as its boiler movement anyway (6+2D6"), so it would indeed be totally pointless if it could charge without using the boiler.
cornixt:
Charging, Marching and Flying aren't Normal moves. They're special kind of moves. It's pretty clear, IMO, that you don't have to use the boilers for a Normal move.But the issue isn't "Normal moves", it's normal charging.
tvandyke
Baggronor:
It says:
“The Iron Daemon may move normally up to its Move distance and fire its weapons without penalty while doing so.”
This highlights the fact it has no penalty to hit with the Cannonades even if it moves. It doesn’t state it can’t march, just that it can fire its guns with no penalty if it moves normally up to 6". In all other cases where a model can’t make march moves, it specifically says so. Nothing to rule out normal moves here.
It then says:
“Alternately, it may choose to engage its steam boiler’s power and move faster, but this is hardly a precise art. In this case, rather than using the normal rules for charging or marching, roll 2D6 and unless a double 1 is rolled, add this number to the Iron Daemon’s movement score for the total distance travelled.”
So going by this, you can choose to use the Boiler and if so, it will replace regular marching or charging.
It says nothing about not being able to move, march and charge normally.
Charging, Marching and Flying aren’t Normal moves.All troops are assumed to be able to perform charges and marching unless otherwise specified, though. Fly is a special rule. You do assume any troops can march or charge unless otherwise specified, but you don’t assume they can fly. You know Swordmasters can march and charge, but you know Tomb Kings can’t march because it tells you so, and you know Chaos Spawn can’t march or charge because you know they have the Random Movement rule.
The ID doesn’t have any of these and it doesn’t specify it can’t perform Marches and Charges like regular troops. Hooray for Unique troop types… :~
What would be the point to ever using the boilers?If you want to get somewhere fast, 2D6 + 6 usually yields more than 12, an average of 13, with a possible 18. Its probably going to move faster than a March Move.
It might or might not be worth pointing out that an Iron Deamon’s hypothetical charge would actually be the same distance as its boiler movement anyway (6+2D6"), so it would indeed be totally pointless if it could charge without using the boiler.If you use it to charge and you fail, you still move the full distance rolled, not the higher of the two dice scores as per a regular charge. That makes a big difference for a T8 Unbreakable unit.
I noticed these ages ago, I’d been thinking about it for some time, but as I only rarely use LoA these days I didn’t think it worth stirring up. RAW, I think it can move normally, though that probably wasn’t the intention, although you can never tell with FW. RAI is something only they can enlighten us to. They probably don’t know themselves…
Anyway, I couldn’t face explaining everything to people all over again every single game and waiting for 25mins while they scrutinise the wording. I’d rather just play my VCs, at least they make sense.
tvandyke:
It does say it can’t March or Charge normally. It tells you right there how to conduct a March or Charge. The previous paragraph talked about NORMAL movement (which isn’t Marching or Charging). This paragraph talks about how you conduct a CHARGE or a MARCH. My goodness, Marches and Charges are movements that are “FASTER” than your normal movement. It clearly states that in order to move “FASTER” so that you can conduct a CHARGE or MARCH, you have to engage the boilers. How are you able to March, which is double speed movement without being able to move faster than a normal move? The rules tell you how you do it, you engage the boilers. Moving normally isn’t Marching or Charging. Most units can’t even shoot if they March. This is simply highlighting there’s no “minuses” for moving but they’re talking about the normal 6" move here. If you want to Charge or March you have to read the next paragraph. Just because most troops (not all, some rely on compulsory movement) can March and Charge doesn’t mean that those types of movement are identical to normal Movement. They’re a special kind of Movement and there are certain things that have to be in place in order to do them, such as passing a LD test if an enemy is within 8" if you want to March. Regular movement has no type of restrictions like that. Marching has it’s own set of rules as does Charging. I think he rules are pretty straight forward. You’re reading waaaayyy too much into them and making it much more complicated than they need to be.
It says:All troops are assumed to be able to perform charges and marching unless otherwise specified, though. Fly is a special rule. You do assume any troops can march or charge unless otherwise specified, but you don’t assume they can fly. You know Swordmasters can march and charge, but you know Tomb Kings can’t march because it tells you so, and you know Chaos Spawn can’t march or charge because you know they have the Random Movement rule.
“The Iron Daemon may move normally up to its Move distance and fire its weapons without penalty while doing so.”
This highlights the fact it has no penalty to hit with the Cannonades even if it moves. It doesn’t state it can’t march, just that it can fire its guns with no penalty if it moves normally up to 6". In all other cases where a model can’t make march moves, it specifically says so. Nothing to rule out normal moves here.
It then says:
“Alternately, it may choose to engage its steam boiler’s power and move faster, but this is hardly a precise art. In this case, rather than using the normal rules for charging or marching, roll 2D6 and unless a double 1 is rolled, add this number to the Iron Daemon’s movement score for the total distance travelled.”
So going by this, you can choose to use the Boiler and if so, it will replace regular marching or charging.
It says nothing about not being able to move, march and charge normally.
[[i]quote]Charging, Marching and Flying aren’t Normal moves.
Baggronor
The ID doesn’t have any of these and it doesn’t specify it can’t perform Marches and Charges like regular troops. Hooray for Unique troop types… :~
lukealexandermorton:
Boiler engine is the best thing about this unit the opponent dosnt get a charge reaction ! Hello no double flee ! How crap it gotta be in a straight line
furrie:
It doesn't say its a march move, it even says that "instead of using the normal charge and march rules" so you wouldn't need to check when an enemy is within 8"It's a little unclear because it doesn't specify that you can't use the normal charging rules if you aren't using the steam boiler. FW have made it clear that you can't charge normally in their replies to questions.Charging, Marching and Flying aren't Normal moves. They're special kind of moves. It's pretty clear, IMO, that you don't have to use the boilers for a Normal move. Normal moves don't include Charging or Marching, in order to do that, you have to be able to move faster and engage the boilers. It says so right in the above paragraph. What would be the point to ever using the boilers? If I choose to make a March Move, why not just go the distance I want (which might be less than a full March Move) instead of some random, uncontrollable distance using the boliers. Without trying to be offensive, it seems obvious that the whole point of the whole boiler rule is create a random element to anything that is not a Normal Move. A Normal Move for the Iron Daemon is anything you want within 6". If you want to make a March Move (which isn't a Normal Move), you have to check that no enemy is within 8", if so then you have to pass a LD test, then engage the boilers and go a random distance and in a straight line. If you want to Charge with it, you have to declare it, engange the boilers, then role a random distance in a straight line. It says exactly that in the rules. I think the confusion comes in because people are thinking Marching and Charging are a type of Normal move but they're not. There's only one kind of Normal move and that's on the ground with your basic distance allowance.
cornixt
tvandyke
Baggronor:
It does say it can't March or Charge normally. It tells you right there how to conduct a March or Charge.It doesn't though. It specifically states the Steam Boiler is an alternative to the Charging and Marching rules.
Let be clear, I'm not rules lawyering; I wouldn't say I'm happy with LoA but I have accepted it for the shambles that it is. I don't mind either way if the train gets better or not, though it would certainly motivate me to paint my Skullcracker if it did ;) But the ID rules are so full of holes, nothing short of a full re-write from FW will sort this properly. And if people prefer to play it as straight ahead only, I'm fine with that too. I do agree that was almost certainly the intention, they just failed to make some very simple clarifications.
tvandyke:
You're not reading the paragraph the same way I am. In the first part of the paragraph they talk about just the simple 6" regular movement and they point out that you don't get penalized for that movement when you shoot. The second part of paragraph where they use the word "Alternately", they're setting you up for a second choice that isn't what was described previously (which is regular 6" movement)'. The words they use are "Alternately, it may choose to engage it's steam boilers power and move faster". They go on to tell you that engaging the boilers replaces the normal rules for Charging and Marching. No where in that paragraph do I read or get the impression that you have a choice between regular Marching or using the Boilers to March. The only two choices presented that are separated by the word "Alternately" is to either move normally (6") or to move faster in order to March or Charge by engaging the boilers. So in very basic terms the rules are simply saying you can either move 6" or you can move "FASTER" than 6" by engaging the boilers. There's simply no posible way to do a regular March or Charge because that would require movement beyond the normal 6" which by every definition under the sun means you're moving "FASTER". The only way to move "FASTER" is by engaging the boilers and when you do so the rules stated replace the normal Charging and Marching rules.It does say it can't March or Charge normally. It tells you right there how to conduct a March or Charge.It doesn't though. It specifically states the Steam Boiler is an alternative to the Charging and Marching rules.
Let be clear, I'm not rules lawyering; I wouldn't say I'm happy with LoA but I have accepted it for the shambles that it is. I don't mind either way if the train gets better or not, though it would certainly motivate me to paint my Skullcracker if it did ;) But the ID rules are so full of holes, nothing short of a full re-write from FW will sort this properly. And if people prefer to play it as straight ahead only, I'm fine with that too. I do agree that was almost certainly the intention, they just failed to make some very simple clarifications.
Baggronor
Gunnerson:
The description which gives the rule of 6" is descriptive of how the unit moves. Movement is described by the [M] attribute of the mini in question. This is then followed by the "Alternately" which is descriptive of how to make a different sort of movment designated as a March, or Charge. Marching and charging are described as a doubling of the minisYou're not reading the paragraph the same way I am. In the first part of the paragraph they talk about just the simple 6" regular movement and they point out that you don't get penalized for that movement when you shoot. The second part of paragraph where they use the word "Alternately", they're setting you up for a second choice that isn't what was described previously (which is regular 6" movement)'. The words they use are "Alternately, it may choose to engage it's steam boilers power and move faster". They go on to tell you that engaging the boilers replaces the normal rules for Charging and Marching. No where in that paragraph do I read or get the impression that you have a choice between regular Marching or using the Boilers to March. The only two choices presented that are separated by the word "Alternately" is to either move normally (6") or to move faster in order to March or Charge by engaging the boilers. So in very basic terms the rules are simply saying you can either move 6" or you can move "FASTER" than 6" by engaging the boilers. There's simply no posible way to do a regular March or Charge because that would require movement beyond the normal 6" which by every definition under the sun means you're moving "FASTER". The only way to move "FASTER" is by engaging the boilers and when you do so the rules stated replace the normal Charging and Marching rules.It does say it can't March or Charge normally. It tells you right there how to conduct a March or Charge.It doesn't though. It specifically states the Steam Boiler is an alternative to the Charging and Marching rules.
Let be clear, I'm not rules lawyering; I wouldn't say I'm happy with LoA but I have accepted it for the shambles that it is. I don't mind either way if the train gets better or not, though it would certainly motivate me to paint my Skullcracker if it did ;) But the ID rules are so full of holes, nothing short of a full re-write from FW will sort this properly. And if people prefer to play it as straight ahead only, I'm fine with that too. I do agree that was almost certainly the intention, they just failed to make some very simple clarifications.
Baggronor
tvandyke
Thommy H:
Let’s all just agree that the rules are terrible.
BABIS:
Let's all just agree that the rules are terrible.yes at all !
Thommy H
I guess we need a new FAQ about this ;)
tvandyke:
Let's all just agree that the rules are terrible.Are you trying to say we shouldn't need to hire an English Professor in order to correctly interpret the rules? :-)
Thommy H
tvandyke:
I think the most important caveat when looking at what they're describing after using the word "Alternately" is the fact they also use the word "Faster", meaning faster than the base movement allowance of 6". If they were trying to describe all normal movement in the first part of the paragraph as including normal Marching and Charging, there would have been no need to then go on and say "Alternately" you can engage the boilers to make it go faster since normal Marching and Charging is already "Faster" than base movement. Because of this, is seems obvious the movement they're talking about in the first part of the paragraph is limited to standard, base movement which is 6". Marching or Charging isn't considered because that requires being able to move at a faster pace and in order to move faster you can do so by "Alternately" engaging the boilers.The description which gives the rule of 6" is descriptive of how the unit moves. Movement is described by the [M] attribute of the mini in question. This is then followed by the "Alternately" which is descriptive of how to make a different sort of movment designated as a March, or Charge. Marching and charging are described as a doubling of the minisYou're not reading the paragraph the same way I am. In the first part of the paragraph they talk about just the simple 6" regular movement and they point out that you don't get penalized for that movement when you shoot. The second part of paragraph where they use the word "Alternately", they're setting you up for a second choice that isn't what was described previously (which is regular 6" movement)'. The words they use are "Alternately, it may choose to engage it's steam boilers power and move faster". They go on to tell you that engaging the boilers replaces the normal rules for Charging and Marching. No where in that paragraph do I read or get the impression that you have a choice between regular Marching or using the Boilers to March. The only two choices presented that are separated by the word "Alternately" is to either move normally (6") or to move faster in order to March or Charge by engaging the boilers. So in very basic terms the rules are simply saying you can either move 6" or you can move "FASTER" than 6" by engaging the boilers. There's simply no posible way to do a regular March or Charge because that would require movement beyond the normal 6" which by every definition under the sun means you're moving "FASTER". The only way to move "FASTER" is by engaging the boilers and when you do so the rules stated replace the normal Charging and Marching rules.It does say it can't March or Charge normally. It tells you right there how to conduct a March or Charge.It doesn't though. It specifically states the Steam Boiler is an alternative to the Charging and Marching rules.
Let be clear, I'm not rules lawyering; I wouldn't say I'm happy with LoA but I have accepted it for the shambles that it is. I don't mind either way if the train gets better or not, though it would certainly motivate me to paint my Skullcracker if it did ;) But the ID rules are so full of holes, nothing short of a full re-write from FW will sort this properly. And if people prefer to play it as straight ahead only, I'm fine with that too. I do agree that was almost certainly the intention, they just failed to make some very simple clarifications.
Baggronor
tvandyke
Gunnerson
Fuggit Khan:
After reading all of this thread, my head hurts. I need a drink :cheers