Recently an international aid flotilla was attacked en route to gaza by isreali soldiers and nine people were killed. this in my opinion is insane, attacking unarmed civilians in international waters under the pretence of anti terrorist operations.
What makes it weirder is the support in isreal, the people seem to be convinced that they are defending Judaism or showing strenght. This is nothing about religion or strenght it’s about money. They don’t want aid to get to palastine and they don’t want Muslims getting money.
I was even more angered to hear that the Irish ship the racheal corry was boarded and the crew taken prisoner and then deported. A women in isreal adressed the problem by saying because the vast majority of isrealis are Jewish they have no rights. That is a stupid answer from one of the most powerful countries in the world and furthermore saying that to get rights if Jewish one must attack an aid boat in iternational waters and kill 9 people.
I’ll just remind people here we have forum rules on derogatory or inflammatory terms, so let’s try and keep this as a mature conversation please.
I have only vaguely followed this, but I think that it is far from clear what actually happened and why. For instance, it is not entirely clear that they were all ‘civilians’, or that they were all unarmed.
Being in international waters in this case is only a side issue imo, their blockade was/ is illegal, but it is the loss of life that is the main issue now.
I think Israel should have a strict policy of not allowing weapons into Gaza by any means, but a permanent blockade is obviously not the answer.
Incidently, this is probably one of two controversial political threads I can think of that we’ve had on CDO, we (I) normally try and stay clear of such things because of their ability to frustrate people.
One needs to remember Israel has been on the defensive since day 1. The first day of their existence they were attacked! Regardless of if you think it was ‘legal’ or not to create them, they exist. As a soveriegn nation they have the right to defend themselves. Being as small as they are, they are constantly in a near desperate situation. It’s a handful of miles from their borders to the sea, so they can’t be more passive… plain and simple. It’s easy for most of us to criticize as our nations are in amazingly safe from invasion from a people with a strong hatred for us.
Furthermore the argument that “Israel should not have been created” is also no longer a valid argument as the majority of Israelis were born in the nation-state of Israel. So they should not be mistreated because of some past upset they had no part in. It’d be like cutting all the countries in the Americas because of what happened to the Natives. It doesn’t matter anymore, these people exist as Israelis and most simply were born and live there.
I honestly believe some of these individuals were quite frankly armed, and once they realized they would be boarded wanted to create a situation that would result in a backlash on Israel. It’s not unusual as you see these events in many places throughout the world, bloody or bloodless. Civil disobedience and all. Sadly, there is a lot of automatic anti-Israeli sentiment. Be that a result of Anti-semitism or simply anti-Israeli state is illrelevent. Hating a nation is disgusting, as by a result you hate the people in that nation.
Considering the Israeli troops were, at first, armed with paint guns in an effort to use non-lethal force… I feel they have been quite restrained. Their capability quite exceeds what they ever choose to do. They show such restraint it is remarkable historically speaking. They show more restraint than I honestly would.
Also the Egyptians are conducting such a blockade as well, so one as to ask why do two countries historically at odds with each other agree? I don’t see the blockade as illegal.
The theory of them not wanting Muslims to get money is odd, as quite frankly they probably would want the standard of living to have some level of development as it would be harder for extremist groups to recruit.
@Sundrinker: Whilst I don’t really feel that a gaming website is really the place for this discussion, several of your points require a response.
1) The concern in Israel is over arms shipments to militant groups, not “Muslims getting money” as you imply. Whether or not the Racheal Corry was or was not carrying arms with intent to supply Hamas or other groups is unknown, however this is undoubtedly a security issue and not an economic one.
2) You need to identify the woman you reference in your argument for it to have any validity. In my first job as a caseworker I dealt with a man who believed that the police were tapping his phone and actively prevented him gaining employment. That man is now residing in Broadmoor maximum security psychiatric hospital, and would not be considered a valid source in an argument on privacy violations. If you base your evidence on a single human source you need that source to have credibility, otherwise you don’t
3) The overlying ideological conflict behind this particular dispute is between Zionism and Pan-Arab Nationalism, not between Judaism and Islam. This is an important distinction which I suggest you recognise before raising this topic.
4) You have made no attempt to recognise the political situation in which these events took place. The ship in question ran a military blockade during a state of conflict. Regardless of the justification for the blockade, to expect it to stroll on through would be illogical.
Lastly, I must add that as a fellow Irishman, I am disappointed to see you treat this situation in such an oversimplified manner. If any nation should be able to comprehend the complexity of the issues affecting Israel and Palestine then it is ours. This type of comment is unconstructive at best.
To everyone else: This is a wargaming forum, not a political rally. We are an international community of many different races and creeds and we have built that community on tolerance and mutual respect. If you wish to continue this discussion with reasoned academic arguments on the development and origins of this situation, then please feel free. any mud-slinging and/or inflamatory comments will not be tolerated under the forum rules. This applies to remarks on other members and on any group on any side of this issue. Enough said I hope.
It’s not that I’m not interested in politics or have arguments pro or contra, but this is a gaming forum. And no, I’m not pro-Israel or pro-Palestine, because the situation as it is now, is the cumulation of 60 years of conflict between both parties and the result of politics by European governments.
I’ve seen this before, when a discussion like this spirals out of control and Dobson’s Law pops up. So before this duscussion messes up the way people treat eachother here, I’d like to say “Really? Is it nessasary to discuss world-politics on a gaming forum”?
This was probably a bad place to post this thread so I apologise.
I am not anti semetic or anti isreali.
Agpo you bring up a very good group of answers and points that I didn’t think about.
The one point that I was trying to make that I clearly didn’t make well is this was a poorly handeled situation and a lot of lives could have been saved if the operation had been properly carried out.
Agpo you say that as an irishman I should have more of an undrstanding and your right and I do but from that understanding I find that running in all guns blazing is a bad idea and will cause worse repercussions.
With all due respect, I would not consider al Jazeera a credible source on this subject for a number of reasons. They would be biased at best.
Edit: My Middle Eastern history prof, who was rather pro-Palestinian independence wouldn't even accept al-Jazeera as a source for information on our papers.
That's unfortunate. I wouldn't use any journalistic sources in an academic paper (except as data), but I strongly disagree that al-Jazeera (English - I can't speak to its Arab sister station) is biased or compromised.
I had the opposite experience in a very good political science course on the Middle East. We were encouraged to read a number of different sources: principally CBC, BBC, al-Jazeera english, CNN, Foxnews, etc. I found that BBC and al-Jazeera were by far the most balanced and comprehensive news sources. I posted the al-Jazeera links here because it has simply been covering this incident more thoroughly than BBC (and there were al-Jazeera journalists on the flotilla).
While the discourse in this thread has been cordial thus far I’m stepping into this one. This is a gaming forum not a political forum. Discussing gaming is great. One of the things that keeps this forum great is the avoidance of such topics: politics, religion,etc. We are pretty tolerant for most topics but these topics never end well, trust me.
I’m more concerned about how this sets a precedence rather then anything discussed thus far. In fact for the most part this has been done well. However with that said there are plenty of other places on the web to discuss this.
In light of that…
EDIT: Just like to add that it IS against forum rules to start threads concerning both politics AND religion, so please all bear that in mind for the future. ~ Hashut’s Blessing.