Something I saw on warseer that got me wondering how similar this was to the CD story.
Ok first I will supply a little backround of the Demise of the Squats with one of the most honest statements from a GW Designer re: the Squats (Jervis Johnson himself)
"I know I shouldn’t get drawn on this… but… can’t… resist
Seriously, a couple of points just so you can have an informed debate based on the real reasons that Squats are no longer available. Be warned, it is going to be hard reading for people that like the Squat background.
First of all, Squats were not dropped because they were not selling well. There were then, and are now, plenty of other figure ranges that sell in the sort of % quantities that the Squats pulled down, especially when you look across all of the ranges produced by GW rather than just those for 40K.
No, the reason that the Squats were dropped was because the creatives in the Studio (people like me, Rick, Andy C, Gav etc) felt that we had failed to do the Dwarf ‘archetype’ justice in its 40K incarnation. From the name of the race (Squats - what were we thinking?!?!) through to the short bikers motif, we had managed to turn what was a proud and noble race in Warhammer and the other literary forms where the archetype exists, into a joke race in 40K. We only fully realised what we had done when we were working on the 2nd edition of 40K. Try as we might, we just couldn’t work up much enthusiasm for the Squats. The mistake we made then (deeply regretted since) was to leave them in the background and the ‘get you by’ army list book that appeared. With hindsight, we should have dropped the Squats back then, and saved ourselves a lot of grief later on.
Anyway, the Squats made it into 2nd edition, and since we were doing army books for each of the races, we started to try and figure out what to do with them. Unfortunately we just couldn’t figure out a way to update them and get them to work that we felt was good enough. The ‘art’ of working on an army as a designer is to find the thing that you think is cool and exciting about an army, and work it up into a strong theme. This ‘muse’ didn’t strike any of us, and so, rather than bring out a second-rate product simply re-hashing the old background, we kept doing other army books instead, with stuff we did feel inspired by.
Now, while this was all going on for 40K, we were actually doing some rather good stuff for the Squats in Epic. On this scale there was a natural tendency to focus on the big ‘hand-made’ war machines the Squat artisans produced, and this created an army with a feel that was very different to the biker hordes in 40K. However, this tended to reinforce the problems we saw in the Squat background rather than alleviate them, underlining what we should have done with the Squats in 40K.
In the end (and it took years to really get to the roots of the problem) this led to a realisation that we were going to have to drop the Squats in their ‘Squat’ form from the 40K background. There was little point having a major race that we weren’t willing to make an army book for, and their inclusion in the background meant that people kept asking us when we’d do a Squat Codex. Instead we decided that we’d write the Squats out of the background by saying that their Homworlds had been devoured by a Tyranid Hivefleet. This would give us the option in the future to return to making a race based on the Squat archetype for 40K. This race was given the name of Demiurg, and a certain amount of preliminary work was done to get a ‘feel’ for what the race would be like. At present the only hint of the Demiurg in 40K is the Demiurg spaceship for BFG. However, we do have this race ‘in our back pocket’ as a possible new race for 40K, or an interesting character model in Inquisitor, or whatever. So far the Demiurg have lost out to other projects, and it may be that their time never actually comes, as they will have to win through on their merits, not simply because we once made some Squat models in the past. At present, I have to say that it is more likely that they don’t make the cut than do, as there is a certain prejudice these days to simply taking races from Warhammer and cross them over to 40K like we did in the early days, so it may be that the Squats/Demiurg end up remaining a footnote in the history of the 40K galaxy. Only time will tell…
I’ll finish off by saying that whatever we decide to do ‘officially’, there is nothing stopping players with Squat armies from using them, either in Epic or 40k for that matter. There is no GW ‘rule’ against using old Citadel Miniatures, as long as you use them with existing army lists and in a way that won’t cause confusion for other players. I recommend taking a positive stand by saying “Have you seen these cool old models? They’re called the Squats and GW used to make them back in the late eighties/early nineties. I love 'em, so I count them as Imperial Guard and use them with the current rules…” Put like this I can’t imagine that anyone would stop you from using your army.
But yes, I think it’s not dissimilar to what happened with Chaos Dwarfs - Gav has said as much, I think. The slightly comical “big hats” were just a bit too goofy to survive the transition into 6th Edition. That period, which was also when the much more overtly gothic 3rd Edition 40K came out, was one of an overall “darkening” of GW’s ranges. Look at the difference between the goofy, brightly-painted Orks of 2nd Edition and the brutal space-barbarians of 3rd. Chaos Dwarfs just didn’t fit with the darker and edgier version of Warhammer that came out. Only when they found a way to make them work with the modern aesthetic - i.e. the Hellcannon - did they start to make sense again.
No idea when it's from. It does all seem very familar, so it probably is a few years old.
The reason it's all being discussed again is because they're bringing squats back into Tau apparently!
Grimstonefire
It was originally posted in the Epic section of the old Specialist Games forum, I think back in the early 00s. Squats have been rumoured to be coming back as Tau allies for years - that's what the Demiurg were supposed to be. They had a couple of ships in Battlefleet Gothic and they were supposed to be expert engineers and manufacturers who lived in brotherhoods on great forge-ships. There's even some concept art floating around somewhere.
Something I saw on warseer that got me wondering how similar this was to the CD story.
Ok first I will supply a little backround of the Demise of the Squats with one of the most honest statements from a GW Designer re: the Squats (Jervis Johnson himself)
"I know I shouldn’t get drawn on this… but… can’t… resist
Seriously, a couple of points just so you can have an informed debate based on the real reasons that Squats are no longer available. Be warned, it is going to be hard reading for people that like the Squat background.
First of all, Squats were not dropped because they were not selling well. There were then, and are now, plenty of other figure ranges that sell in the sort of % quantities that the Squats pulled down, especially when you look across all of the ranges produced by GW rather than just those for 40K.
No, the reason that the Squats were dropped was because the creatives in the Studio (people like me, Rick, Andy C, Gav etc) felt that we had failed to do the Dwarf ‘archetype’ justice in its 40K incarnation. From the name of the race (Squats - what were we thinking?!?!) through to the short bikers motif, we had managed to turn what was a proud and noble race in Warhammer and the other literary forms where the archetype exists, into a joke race in 40K. We only fully realised what we had done when we were working on the 2nd edition of 40K. Try as we might, we just couldn’t work up much enthusiasm for the Squats. The mistake we made then (deeply regretted since) was to leave them in the background and the ‘get you by’ army list book that appeared. With hindsight, we should have dropped the Squats back then, and saved ourselves a lot of grief later on.
Anyway, the Squats made it into 2nd edition, and since we were doing army books for each of the races, we started to try and figure out what to do with them. Unfortunately we just couldn’t figure out a way to update them and get them to work that we felt was good enough. The ‘art’ of working on an army as a designer is to find the thing that you think is cool and exciting about an army, and work it up into a strong theme. This ‘muse’ didn’t strike any of us, and so, rather than bring out a second-rate product simply re-hashing the old background, we kept doing other army books instead, with stuff we did feel inspired by.
Now, while this was all going on for 40K, we were actually doing some rather good stuff for the Squats in Epic. On this scale there was a natural tendency to focus on the big ‘hand-made’ war machines the Squat artisans produced, and this created an army with a feel that was very different to the biker hordes in 40K. However, this tended to reinforce the problems we saw in the Squat background rather than alleviate them, underlining what we should have done with the Squats in 40K.
In the end (and it took years to really get to the roots of the problem) this led to a realisation that we were going to have to drop the Squats in their ‘Squat’ form from the 40K background. There was little point having a major race that we weren’t willing to make an army book for, and their inclusion in the background meant that people kept asking us when we’d do a Squat Codex. Instead we decided that we’d write the Squats out of the background by saying that their Homworlds had been devoured by a Tyranid Hivefleet. This would give us the option in the future to return to making a race based on the Squat archetype for 40K. This race was given the name of Demiurg, and a certain amount of preliminary work was done to get a ‘feel’ for what the race would be like. At present the only hint of the Demiurg in 40K is the Demiurg spaceship for BFG. However, we do have this race ‘in our back pocket’ as a possible new race for 40K, or an interesting character model in Inquisitor, or whatever. So far the Demiurg have lost out to other projects, and it may be that their time never actually comes, as they will have to win through on their merits, not simply because we once made some Squat models in the past. At present, I have to say that it is more likely that they don’t make the cut than do, as there is a certain prejudice these days to simply taking races from Warhammer and cross them over to 40K like we did in the early days, so it may be that the Squats/Demiurg end up remaining a footnote in the history of the 40K galaxy. Only time will tell…
I’ll finish off by saying that whatever we decide to do ‘officially’, there is nothing stopping players with Squat armies from using them, either in Epic or 40k for that matter. There is no GW ‘rule’ against using old Citadel Miniatures, as long as you use them with existing army lists and in a way that won’t cause confusion for other players. I recommend taking a positive stand by saying “Have you seen these cool old models? They’re called the Squats and GW used to make them back in the late eighties/early nineties. I love 'em, so I count them as Imperial Guard and use them with the current rules…” Put like this I can’t imagine that anyone would stop you from using your army.
That was a really interesting read. Actually sounds somewhat hopeful for the Squat fans. Thanks for sharing that Jervis statement with us, no matter how old it is.
I saw some supposedly leaked pictures of demiurg on sprues a couple of years back that people said were genuine.
Quick look on Warseer and it looks like early next year for Tau. Should be interesting to see if they do bring in Demiurg after the reintroduction of the Jokaero and the Clawed Fiend (who I believe were both from the Squat era).
Jokaero are from Rogue Trader, the Clawed Fiend first appeared in the background section of the 3rd Edition Rulebook. But yeah, everything old is new again - that’s been the case for all of the recent releases, with the return of all sorts of random units from previous editions. Now would be a good time for the Squats to reappear in some form.
If they weren't inspired, they weren't inspired. Better to leave something for another day than complete a project that no one has any faith in.
Thommy H
I hear this all the time regarding GW. But I can't for the life of me think of any other corporate entity which would seriously base its business on it, not even within the creative scene, so I've never put much stock in it.
Now, if it were a factor, as Jervis says, of them not being able to find a compatible niche for the squats within the scope of 40k as they wanted the product to involve into, then that's another matter entirely, and a conscious decision of design and artistry - but I don't believe "inspiration" to be the decisive factor.
What’s the difference? It didn’t work with the product line. The product line is what comes out of the studio’s design choices. Ergo, they weren’t inspired to do it. They wanted 40K to go a certain way - that’s what they were inspired to do - and the Squats were a casualty of that.
Or do you imagine a bunch of guys in suits turned up in 1998 and told the GW studio to start playing up the gothic stuff and they just had to go along with it? It’s a small studio of writers, artists and sculptors. Yes, it’s a global, publicly-traded company, but they’re still driven primarily by a group of artists. Yes, there’ll be some wider brand objectives that they have to meet, but they pretty much just make what they want to make, when they want to make it.
A corporation - any corporation - is still limited by the whims of its designers. You can’t market something that doesn’t exist. Now, for massive industries, that’s no problem. The pop starlet you had doesn’t want to do that kind of music any more? Find another one! Your engineers can’t built the kind of cellphone you want to sell? Find some different ones! There’s no shortage of people lining up to do those jobs. But in a niche industry like wargaming, if your guys don’t want to make Squats - even if you somehow think they’ll sell (which is far-fetched in itself) - you can’t fire them and find a design studio that does.
As for the Demiurg, I’ve liked the sketch and most certainly the bust for as long as I’ve known of them. Because the Demiurg bust is alien enough to make space Swarfs interesting enough in an imaginary universe that’s already got space Elves and space Greenskins, I hope they’ll get a unit entry or suchlike in the next Tau codex. I’m a fan of the Kroot and Vespid auxillias already, so please bring in the Demiurg, GW!
Interesting I was also reading on Warseer a rumour that they are going to look more like they’re made of stone than short humans. Take with a pinch of salt of course, but I for one think they would look better as not looking in any way human.
Short aliens with alien tech, than happen to like alcohol and have beards!
What's the difference? It didn't work with the product line. The product line is what comes out of the studio's design choices. Ergo, they weren't inspired to do it. They wanted 40K to go a certain way - that's what they were inspired to do - and the Squats were a casualty of that.
Thommy H
That's what I'm saying. To me that wouldn't equate to "inspiration" - that sounds more like a conscious decision as opposed to one that comes about as a result of lack of ideas.
I've never heard of people working within graphic design to fail to deliver due to a lack of inspiration. That sounds like something akin to writers block preventing you from completing the task at hand.
Or do you imagine a bunch of guys in suits turned up in 1998 and told the GW studio to start playing up the gothic stuff and they just had to go along with it?
Thommy H
Don't be silly.
It's a small studio of writers, artists and sculptors. Yes, it's a global, publicly-traded company, but they're still driven primarily by a group of artists. Yes, there'll be some wider brand objectives that they have to meet, but they pretty much just make what they want to make, when they want to make it.
Thommy H
I'm not saying that isn't true. Just that I have a hard time envisioning it. I've never heard of a AAA-games developer acting in this way, for example. It's possible to deliver solid products without resorting to a "lack of inspiration" as a basis for the decisions you make.
A corporation - any corporation - is still limited by the whims of its designers. You can't market something that doesn't exist. Now, for massive industries, that's no problem. The pop starlet you had doesn't want to do that kind of music any more? Find another one! Your engineers can't built the kind of cellphone you want to sell? Find some different ones! There's no shortage of people lining up to do those jobs. But in a niche industry like wargaming, if your guys don't want to make Squats - even if you somehow think they'll sell (which is far-fetched in itself) - you can't fire them and find a design studio that does.
Thommy H
I think they probably played it smart focusing on the stuff they felt they could do justice at the time - remember, this is what? 15 years ago? Any discussion relating to the GW of today is probably academic.
I don't believe GW works in this way any more. I'd be very surprised if it did. An inspiration-driven design process might be a prerequisite for a good product, sure - but you can't refer to it as the basic requirement for the production of said product. I have a hard time believeing car designers go to work feeling inspired each and every day they're supposed to deliver something of substance.
And I also deign to guess that far from every GW product is a result of "inspiration".
The cellphone industry is a great example of something which clearly suffers under either bad management or a lack of innovative design - as long as new smartphones keep looking and working as iPhone-ripoffs, then no matter how much cash they throw at advertising it's still the Apple prouct that's gonna stick in people's minds (as recent surveys show).
Anyway, if contrary to my belief, GW does in fact let design rule its business approach then that would go a long way towards explaining some of the weird moves they've made over the years. Like excluding stuff from army books when splitting them up for example.
I've never heard of people working within graphic design to fail to deliver due to a lack of inspiration.
The GW studio aren't a bunch of independent contractors hired to deliver something. They're the people who invent all the new stuff in GW games. They're the well from which the whole thing springs - it's not like someone higher up was asking them to make Squats and they couldn't. They set the agenda, and Squats weren't on it. No one had any ideas for them, at least not ones that worked with the then-current direction of the 40K universe.
I don't quite understand why that's such a controversial idea.
I've never heard of people working within graphic design to fail to deliver due to a lack of inspiration.
The GW studio aren't a bunch of independent contractors hired to deliver something. They're the people who invent all the new stuff in GW games. They're the well from which the whole thing springs - it's not like someone higher up was asking them to make Squats and they couldn't. They set the agenda, and Squats weren't on it. No one had any ideas for them, at least not ones that worked with the then-current direction of the 40K universe.
I don't quite understand why that's such a controversial idea.
Thommy H
I believe that was true at the time, I meant that I didn't think it was true of the GW of today.
I’d say the truth is about halfway between Thommy and Satan’s arguments. GW spend a disproportionate amount of time and resources on Space Marines compared to their other ranges, as they are by far the best sellers. This is poor games dev strategy but very solid corporate strategy. On the other hand what goes into those ranges still works very much on the whims of the designers. A new race would be a huge undertaking, and the designers would have to convince corporate that it was a good investment of their resources, rather than just releasing a new chapter codex.
