Hashut’s Blessing:
As Zharkov said, they aren’t the same, but share similar ideals. \he just explained it in a much better way. The Old Ones are more akin to the Slann. They are spacefaring ubermages as far as I know and have powers equivalent/more powerful than gods and are worshipped as such by Lizardmen. Therefore, they would begin to become gods in the warp/realm of Chaos. It is a similar scenario for the C’tan. If Zharkov (who has proven many times to be adept at explaining the gods) can explain it better, I hope he will…
Lord Zarkov:
how does the horned rat encompass tzeentch
i think khaine is much more slaaneshi than khornate
Arlon
He overlaps with Tzeentch, not encompasses (Tzeentch is huge, the Horned Rat is much, much smaller).
His overlaps with Tzeentch are in the massed plotting, backstabbing and politicking he encorages in his followers; in the way he fosters rampant advancement and 'improvement' (look at Clans Moulder and Skyre); how he and his servants make great use of magic as a means to their ends (Again Moulder and Skyre; also look at the Grey Seers - his priests and champions - all potent Sorcerers.) - All these are well established Tzeentchian traits, but also core to the Horned Rat.
On The Old Ones:
Originally they were beings similar to the Slaan who arrived on the Warhamemr world in 'silver ships', changed it to their liking, added lots of races, and left shorly before Chaos came.
The Lizardmen were thier favoured servants and came to worship the individual Old Ones as gods. After the physical beings' depature this worship, belief and devotion built up manifestations in the warp of the Old Ones' identities as 'imposed' by the Lizardmen (i.e. they are what the Lizardmen think they are, not necessarliy as they were). These manifestations would then become aware and act as any other god - but with favoured bias towards the Lizardmen.
Sotek is slightly different in that he came later as a manifestation of the Lizardmen's rage at other races invading thier lands and plundering their cities, and especially at the Skaven and their plagues. But he was then 'identified' as an already prophesised god and had a particular identity impresse dupon him by their beliefs and needs.
wallacer:
The old ones are essentially a rip off of H. P. Lovecraft.
In lovecraft the old ones/Elder Gods (not to be confused with the Great Old Ones such as Cthuluhu) travelled across the stars and were effectively a kind of race of super scientists who resisted the malevolent Great Old ones such as Cthulhu and Yog Sothoth.
The GW version of things kind of blurs the Elder Gods and the Great Old Ones together.
Ingrown:
However, when you are more awake, it'd be nice if you could find it, please.
Hashut's Blessing
I've failed, i cant find a proper reference for what i was on about, I'm blaming this on fact I'm pretty sure I've sold the book I think it might have been in. Anyway a lot of maybes and excuses
But im still certain they are the same or at least very heavily linked gods, as the old plastic witch elf had the Khorne symbol on that hat thing and the current witch elves have a stylized but unmistakably Khornite symbol as their banner:
http://uk.games-workshop.com/darkelves/miniature-gallery/9/
I must however bow down to Zharkov on the knowledge front, thats some pretty impressive memory
Arlon:
now that ive reread the dark elf book ive changed my stance
khaine is very much more khornate, because of the blood, the dislike of magic, and the combat status
thanks lord zarkov i understand much more clearly now
Lord Zarkov:
However, when you are more awake, it'd be nice if you could find it, please.
Hashut's Blessing
I've failed, i cant find a proper reference for what i was on about, I'm blaming this on fact I'm pretty sure I've sold the book I think it might have been in. Anyway a lot of maybes and excuses
But im still certain they are the same or at least very heavily linked gods, as the old plastic witch elf had the Khorne symbol on that hat thing and the current witch elves have a stylized but unmistakably Khornite symbol as their banner:
http://uk.games-workshop.com/darkelves/miniature-gallery/9/
I must however bow down to Zharkov on the knowledge front, thats some pretty impressive memory
Ingrown
Thanks!
yes Khaine does have strong links with Khorne, but he also has strong links with Slaanesh as well.
This duology is seen quite well in the Cauldrons of Blood: The 'red fury' it invokes in nearby Witch Elves and the whole aspect of filling a cauldron (surrounded by a pile of skulls) with the blood of unwilling sacrifices is very Khornate; but on the other hand there's the aspect that the principle purpose of them is the quest for eternal youth and beauty - very Slaaneshi.
Even the 'Leader' of the Witch Elves - and owner of the one 'true' Cauldron of Blood - is an open worshipper of Slaanesh; while still many of them openly wear symbols of khorne (or at least used to - that banner is I think the only example amoungst the current models and artwork - unlike in 5th Ed)
Due to the nature of what they do though, I wouldn't be suprised if many Witch Elves have fallen on both sides of the divide.
AGPO:
how does the horned rat encompass tzeentch
i think khaine is much more slaaneshi than khornate
Arlon
Which is why he hates the cult of Slaanesh so much.
The official fluff often contradicts itself. It has previously been said that various other gods are in fact manifestations of Khorne and the other chaos dieties. Khaine - who is the elven god of war as well as murder - would be a prime example of this
Godbob and his jolly rogers:
The Old Ones, in the Fantasy or 40k universes, are not Eldar.
Matthias
thay are in fact a eavalotion of the old one that's why they hate necrons so much and other reasons
Lord Zarkov:
even in 40K the Eldar are not an evolution of the Old Ones, but are a new and different race created by the old ones in a similar way to how they created the Orks, the Hrud, Humans, and many others besides. They hate the necrons because the Ancestors of the Eldar (along with the Old Ones) fought a millenia long genocidal war against them and (like all the Old One’s projects) were created to fight them.
Filipicusius:
I don’t think Khaine is very Slaaneshi.
The fact that dark elves seem to worship a mixture between Slaanesh and Khorne may be because they worship both!
The fact that dark elves seem to be very slaaneshi isn’t because khaine is slaaneshi, but because they worship BOTH!
zorn sabretooth:
well i think khaine is khronate(bloodshed)and tzeetchi(plotting)
Steven:
This is from Liber Chaotica - Volume 1 - Khorne under a page entitled "Khaine:Lord of Murder"
A god named Khaine, a god of murder and death and bloodshed, only the wilfully blind could not see that this is none other than the Blood Lord himself, cloaked in one of his many guises to beguile and trick those who might otherwise repel him.
Of course, this was “written” by some fictional writer, so it could be said that it’s just the opinion of that particular "author."
I was almost positive that I have seen in one of the old books that Khaine was in fact Khorne, but I can’t seem to find it. So maybe I’m just imagining things.
Lord Zarkov:
I don't think Khaine is very Slaaneshi.
The fact that dark elves seem to worship a mixture between Slaanesh and Khorne may be because they worship both!
The fact that dark elves seem to be very slaaneshi isn't because khaine is slaaneshi, but because they worship BOTH!
Filipicusius
That might explain for the race as a whole, but just within the Witch Elf element (who definitly do not worship Slaanesh (as a majority at least, there will be exceptions (notably Morathi)) have both very strong Khorne elements
and Slaaneshi elements. And these are Khaine's devotees.
Filipicusius:
Thought i read something in Liber Chaotica about pleasure in killing is the gift of khorne.
Ancient History:
In 40k, Khaine was claimed by both Slaanesh and Khorne but managed to escape while they struggled over him. Might be a parallel to the WFB situation.
Theory_Man:
even in 40K the Eldar are not an evolution of the Old Ones, but are a new and different race created by the old ones in a similar way to how they created the Orks, the Hrud, Humans, and many others besides. They hate the necrons because the Ancestors of the Eldar (along with the Old Ones) fought a millenia long genocidal war against them and (like all the Old One's projects) were created to fight them.
Lord Zarkov
Are the worlds of 40K and Fantasy linked (in terms of time and universe)?
Lord Zarkov:
The warp is the same, but the universes are different
The Gods of Chaos have been known to move their daemons between them
Godbob and his jolly rogers:
to me they are just different galaxy but the warp can reach anthing (gosh there so much history for some plastic modals)
Hashut’s Blessing:
On The Old Ones:
Originally they were beings similar to the Slaan who arrived on the Warhamemr world in 'silver ships', changed it to their liking, added lots of races, and left shorly before Chaos came.
The Lizardmen were thier favoured servants and came to worship the individual Old Ones as gods. After the physical beings' depature this worship, belief and devotion built up manifestations in the warp of the Old Ones' identities as 'imposed' by the Lizardmen (i.e. they are what the Lizardmen think they are, not necessarliy as they were). These manifestations would then become aware and act as any other god - but with favoured bias towards the Lizardmen.
Sotek is slightly different in that he came later as a manifestation of the Lizardmen's rage at other races invading thier lands and plundering their cities, and especially at the Skaven and their plagues. But he was then 'identified' as an already prophesised god and had a particular identity impresse dupon him by their beliefs and needs.
Lord Zarkov
Thanks, Zarkov. This is what I was getting at. I was under the impression that the symbol for Khaine was the same as Khorne, except POSSIBLY more stylised and fluidic, similar to the ideas of Slaanesh. Oh well. I can't recall what else I was going to say, but for some time, GW has said they are separate places (40k and FB), however, recently it seems to be merging again...
Godbob and his jolly rogers:
what do you mean mergeing