With all the talk of how hard the Kdaii Destroyer is (4+ ward, immune to Str4 and below non magical attacks). I though i’d make a topic about how the different races can best deal with the beasty.
I play dwarfs most of the time and thankfully they have a couple of options for taking it out.
Runed up warmachines (count as magic so no -1 to wound). Of course the 4+ ward means you’re wasting your attacks half of the time but it’s very killable for dwarfs.
Second option is a tooled up lord with magic attacks/good save/immune to flame.
Slayers?
These are the best options dwarfs have for dealing with the creature. I don’t think it’s so bad for dwarfs but still a very tough customer as the potential of wasting your crucial cannon/souped up bolt thrower shots is a big one.
I’m wondering how High Elves would kill the thing without relying on magic?
What are the options for other armies to either take them out or take them out of the game.
As was stated in the Blazing Body thread, Vampires are well equiped with access to Ethereal units and can tie one up pretty easy. As for taking it out, well they have Ghouls with their poisoned attacks (relying on the poison to hurt the beast) and a Terrorgheist is good at screaming it to death. One of the vampires most effective offensive weapons of Blood Knights to the face falls down against the destroyer due to their initiative of 4 compared with the super swift Destroyer attacking first with 7-9 strength 7 attacks. For comparison purposes, 5 bloodknights with Full command is the same pts cost as the destroyer exactly.
High elves: prince with dragon armour on a horse, with the giant balde (so he’s S7 and magical attacks), possibly other tricksters shard as well, in a unit of dragon princes (silver helms are cheaper and most commonly seen as a cavalry bus, but no 2+ fire ward), with a BSB with amulet of light (gives unit magical attacks), wearing dragon armour, with a great weapon on a horse. Fairly common set up.
Prince gets 4 S7 attacks, rerolling to hit, wounding on a 3+. BSB gets 3 S6 attacks, rerolling to hit, wounding on a 4+. Rest of the unit will be S5, S3 after the charge, but again with magical attacks, again all rerolling to hit. The unit is a lot of points, but should win combat.
Or bow of the seafarer, which is a magic bow (that does magical attacks), hits resolved like a bolt thrower, so S6, d3 wounds.
With a movement of nine and the single model rules {infinite number of pivots}, it’s going to be running eighteen inches in circles around whatever it wants.
What you’d need is to pound it with magical artillery {dwarfs}, high strength non-flaming spells, Kholek Suneater {Or any other character that is very fast, has a solid ward save, and does multiple wounds on attack, such as Malekith, or other dragon-riding monster-hunting characters}.
Dragon Princes are solid, given their huge speed, and relative immunity to the damage the thing causes, but ultimately it’s just a stop-gap. They won’t kill him without adding a character into the unit too, with specific anti-fire countermeasures, with a magical strength-increasing weapon. It’s simply too many points to spend as an Elf player to deal with the Destroyer, unless you’re building a list specifically to deal with them.
Breakdown as I see it by army {but by no means all-inclusive, I’m probably forgetting things}
Daemons: Probably the best set to deal with the Destroyer on an ordinary basis. Pound it with some magic, and go for the kill with a Greater Daemon. Everything’s magical, so everything ignores burning body.
Chaos Mortals: Kholek Suneater, Tzeentch magic {infernal gateway will ruin a Destroyer’s day}, tooled-up characters with some flame protection on a disc, or Steed {to make them capable of getting into position}, even Chaos Knights will do some damage if they can get the charge off - softening it up for a killshot by a character, or magic, what have you.
Beastmen: God, I’m so, so sorry, Beastmen players.
High Elves: We’ve been through those, Dragon Princes, kitted-out and mounted anti-fire characters, etc.
Dark Elves: Lots of offensive magic, Dark Elves are probably relatively well suited to taking down something like the Destroyer, given their abundance of phenomenal items, and access to Shadows.
Wood Elves: See Beastmen.
Empire: I guess they could throw a steamtank into combat, but I doubt either will kill the other. Probably the best bet, as the Empire player comes out ahead on points in that tradeoff.
Khemri: To be honest, I haven’t experienced the new Khemri book enough to really be an authority on the new Tomb Kings.
Vampire Counts: Baggronar made a few good points on this front in another thread, I’ll let him discuss them here.
Dwarfs: Plenty of runed of thanes with fire protection, and magical artillery. Could slow it down with the anvil, too.
Skaven: Jezzails. The gift that keeps on giving. Jezzails and the other myriad magical ranged weapons, and if you want to go big, there’s always the thirteenth spell.
Alright, I’m going to bed, and I think I missed an army or two. I’ll edit tomorrow. All points are assuming you know you’re going up against a Destroyer, or at least think you may be in a tournament scenario.
Daemons: Very easy, all is magic. Great unclean one + bale sword. Light magic (2D6 S4+light wizards).Everything when it has lost some wounds… Chaos Mortals: Tzeentch magic, tzeentch lord with 3+ ward save, chaos knights in numbers, hellcannon shots. Beastmen: no idea. High Elves: Dragon Princes, characters with dragon armour or etheral, white lions, light magic (2D6 S4+light wizards). Dark Elves: witch elves, lord with pendant. Wood Elves: no idea. Empire: very easy. Cannons, light magic with war altar (2D6 S4+light wizards), steamtank to stop it. Khemri: light magic (2D6 S4+light wizards), maybe a sphinx can stop it 1-2turns. Bad match up for the khemri Vampire Counts: etheral, ghouls, terrorgheist, … Dwarfs: very easy with warmachines (with no flaming attack) Skaven: all is magic, poison attacks, cannons, etc… OG : rocklobber, manglers. Bad match up for the OnG. OK : cannons, S6 saturation. Bretonnia : heroic killing blow, warmachine Lizardmen : skinks, skinks, skinks. Etheral slaan.
Every tough lord with dragon gem or dragon helm. Poison attacks. Shadow lore or minus toughness spell+ toughness test Light magic (2D6 S4+light wizards, reroll ward save). Just some ideas…
Not handguns - just giant, expensive war machines that some armies don't even have.
What's coming out of this discussion, for me, is that some (perhaps even most) armies have a couple of things that can bring it down. But, of course, in order for that to mean anything they have to know they're coming up against a Destroyer and bring those things along. Maybe list-tailoring is more commonplace than I think, but I don't personally have the luxury of being able to field every possible combination of miniatures in my armies. High Elves can use Dragon Princes, sure, but what if I don't have any Dragon Princes? What if I'm the kind of person who plays Warhammer the way GW wants me too, and likes everything to be painted and WYSIWYG? What if I just don't like Dragon Princes?
And so we have a problem. Because I think most people don't just play Warhammer to win, proxying whatever they need to beat their opponents. Most people play with armies modelled and painted to the best of their ability - given the time and money they have available - and take the same basic combination of units in almost every game. And those people expect to have a fighting chance against every opponent they face, assuming the points values are the same. Showing up with your nicely painted Wood Elves to find your opponent's new Forge World army has a monster your army pretty much cannot kill at all is not going to make you think Chaos Dwarfs are cool. It's going to make you think they suck, and FW can't write decent rules, and it's a waste of your evening playing Warhammer. And that helps nobody.
People need to build armies that can handle a variety of stuff. It’s no good complaining that you can’t beat certain armies if your army is lacking in certain areas. The Destroyer is certainly an extreme, so reduces the number of available options that can take it out, but pretty much every balanced army should have something that can wound it although killing it may be hard.
Jeez, man. If you play Warhammer the way GW intended as you said (I assume this means a relaxed, beer-and-pretzels type of thing which I’m all for - I’ve never attended a tournament and definitely never will), how big is this problem really? I’ve said to my friends they can always wound it on a 6. That way only high strength, non-magical attacks feel the disadvantage, and everything else still stands a (fairly small) chance of taking it out.
If the setting is relaxed, friendly and play-for-fun I would feel completely at ease by asking my opponent not to bring a certain thing - something I simply cannot beat. I’ve actually done this once before. If a certain unit, item, combo or whatever takes the fun out of a spare time activity then I feel it is worth discussing before a game. If I know I’ll be really bored playing the game because I don’t stand a chance and can’t do anything worthwhile in-game, why even start in the first place?
Of course, the hard part is being realistic about this and not remove very powerful things that aren’t totally over the top. Naturally this requires a degree of sensibility and communications between the players. If people play this game with friends, like I do, I feel there would never be an issue with this…
I know the Destroyer is unbalanced if it’s immune to S4<. I even feel it’s quite good for its points if it can always be wounded on a 6. It’s a game and it’s not set in stone - adapt whatever you feel needs it in order to achieve the goal of any game: to have fun.
As I already said in the other thread I simply allow my opponents to wound the monster on 6s. The K’daai does its job perfectly even so and nobody complains:)
Most armies have a means of killing the destroyer. I’ve lost mine a couple of times to the amber spear spell (damn wood elves).
I really find the destroyer can be a game breaker at the 2000pt level. Once you start getting up higher in points 2500+ the destroyer can generally be dealt with by most opponents.
Jeez, man. If you play Warhammer the way GW intended as you said (I assume this means a relaxed, beer-and-pretzels type of thing which I'm all for - I've never attended a tournament and definitely never will), how big is this problem really? I've said to my friends they can always wound it on a 6. That way only high strength, non-magical attacks feel the disadvantage, and everything else still stands a (fairly small) chance of taking it out.
That's exactly how I play (when I play, which isn't often). And you're right - in that environment, it's easy to ask an opponent not to bring it, or to change the rule to something more fair. And bear in mind I'm assuming FW's answer to the Blazing Body ruling to be "correct" - I don't think it should be played that way (which is my whole point), but let's use their interpretation as a baseline.
Because, you see, that brings me to my next point: yes, we can modify the game to make it fair. Modify the metagame by banning certain units or introducing comp (*shudders*) or modify the rules themselves as we see fit. Of course we can. I've done it many times. Warhammer is what you make it. But that's not much of an answer, is it? If any debate about a broken unit can be countered with "just change it" or "just don't use it"...why bother talking about it at all? The discussion is about how to kill the Destroyer, as it is, as FW think it should be played. We can move the goalposts around as much as you like, but let's not act as if that's an actual solution to anything per se.
I would like, as far as possible, to play the rules as they're written, because it makes it easier for me. I can make a game up myself if I want. I can write the rules from scratch, invent my own background, and balance it to my taste. I've done it before. But if I'm choosing to use the Warhammer ruleset, I'm obviously wanting to avoid having to heavily homebrew it to make it work, or why spend all that money on Armies books and other supplements? I might as well chuck the baby out with the bathwater and do my own thing altogether.
So, what I'm here to discuss is whether the Destroyer as written is fair or not. Anything else renders the whole business moot!
Always wounded on a “6” until ruled otherwise in a GW FAQ (which is to say never)
I think most people wouldn’t bat an eye. Besides only the CD player would be the knowing the ruling otherwise, so it takes one to be responsible not to push the issue. I believe you’d be arguing before the game even started if you tried to argue otherwise.
I’m a pretty hardcore GT player and TO and even I don’t see the “more competitive” GT players arguing that. Most I spoke to assumed it’s wounded on 6’s.
no biggie unless the CD player in question is trying to game some poorly written rules.
So, what I'm here to discuss is whether the Destroyer as written is fair or not. Anything else renders the whole business moot!
Thommy H
I think you are blowing things out of proportion. As zhatan87 posted, there are 2 armies out there which don't have a standard way of dealing with it (assuming immune to S<5). Every other army has the tools to take it down/take it out of the game with units which are bog standard procedure for these armies, no need to "tailor" lists. All the "tailoring" which is needed is something every army has to do once a new army hits the market, eg. magic attacks vs. etheral creatures, something to take down dragons/big monsters, etc.
I get that you feel the rules are "over the top", but it is really not all that different from other units you have to counter on the gaming table (in my opinion, of course). The "fluffy" empire army (modeled after the english civil war, lots of halbardiers and handgunners in big units, historical miniatures) i play against regularly has a hard time against hydras and skaven abominations, too. Because, while the strength 4 halbardiers are theoretically able to wound the abomination - in practice an abomination eats a halbardier regiment for breakfast. And against cannons and the like the abomination has a ward save, too.
I do think the Destroyer is cheap for what it does. But i also think the LoA infantry is really, really expensive for what it does. A discussion about certain strengths should be made in light of all the other units available, IMO. And too expensive infantry + too cheap destroyer is nothing i loose sleep over (since i can only take one destroyer, but are forced to take multiple infantry).
If one of your regular opponents plays one of the two armies which have a hard time against it, or play a certain style of army which has a hard time against it, i think it is standard decency and politeness to warn your gaming partner beforehand - so s/he can tailor her/his list - or leave the offending unit at home. For a game down the store/club? Well, the destroyer can play with the big toys. ;)
(For the record: I wouldn't throw a temper tantrum if the rules for the destroyer would be changed to "always be wounded on a 6". But in light of the other rules and units in the LoA i don't feel unfairly advantaged in light of the rules-as-are.)
no biggie unless the CD player in question is trying to game some poorly written rules.
Method
The rule isn't written poorly - it is quite clear. Now, whether you like the rule, or think it is an unbalanced rule, is another thing altogether. Tournament organizers change the rules of warhammer all the time, and the people who attend the events are ok with that ( i should now - i organized my fair share of "house-ruled" tournaments back in the day, with attendants from all over the country - heck, even GW house-rules it's tournaments!).
So, what I'm here to discuss is whether the Destroyer
as written is fair or not. Anything else renders the whole business moot![/quote]
Here's what I think is a good reply to your post overall:
[/quote]
As I stated earlier I don't attend tournaments myself and would never care to do it, so I obviously cannot confirm Zhorn's statement (quoted above) to be true, but I am going to assume it is more or less true (with the variable being "all the time").
Because, you see, that brings me to my next point: yes, we can modify the game to make it fair. Modify the metagame by banning certain units or introducing comp (*shudders*) or modify the rules themselves as we see fit. Of course we can. I've done it many times. Warhammer is what you make it. But that's not much of an answer, is it? If any debate about a broken unit can be countered with "just change it" or "just don't use it"...why bother talking about it at all? The discussion is about how to kill the Destroyer, as it is, as FW think it should be played. We can move the goalposts around as much as you like, but let's not act as if that's an actual solution to anything
ThommyH
per se.[/quote]
I must be frank here; as Zhorn also said, I think you are blowing things out of proportion. Not only in this discussion, but in others regarding the Destroyer. Why bother talking about it at all? Because we're only human, and no single one of us can ever hope to come up with the perfect answer for everything and so we have the fora to discuss. Seeing as tournament organizers introduce house rules all the time I see no reason not to do it myself if my group feels something is way off balance.
I know what this discussion is about, and here's my take. If the Destroyer is indeed immune to S4< then you don't kill it. You get extremely lucky on a number of factors all at the same time: you hope for the Destroyer's owner to have bad dice rolls with it (both with regards to Burning Bright and combat), you hope to have one of the lores of magic which can instantly kill it, roll the right spell, actually get it off, hope there's no Ward save (I can't remember all the instant kill spells), or you hope to hit with enough warmachines that the Destroyer fails its saves and you at the same time roll well on the multiple wounds.
That's how I feel about it, and if it has to boil down to either extreme tailoring (like the High Elf example from earlier) or insane, extreme luck then I think it is simply not worth it for me to take the Destroyer. I want my opponent to have fun, because if they're not having fun because 325 of my points can wade through most of his 2000+ points (and supported by Deathshriekers and Magma Cannons) I won't have fun either. So long story short in my opinion it's much better to simply adjust the Destroyer's rules a little bit.
Seeing as my friends generally just play relaxed and don't tailer to any noteworthy degree they'd require dumb luck (me failing multiple Burning Bright) and getting the aforementioned super spells off. I mean, I know I'm repeating myself now but I simply feel it's stupid.