It’s now becoming more of a tactica on armies beating the destroyer, but it’s ultimately easy to have something to take out the destroyer (magic, magical attacks, “immune” to fire things etc). The problem is getting to it. It’s the Movement 9 (which I’ve always questioned, to be honest).
Beastmen could take Cygors - they get bonuses for its ward save.
Wood Elves can use forest spirits (particularly dryads) and magic, as well as magic bows/arrows etc.
Bottom line, it’s underpriced and a little overpowered (in a non-expert set of tactical hands) for a much higher points cost, but it’s not unbeatable.
"The more and more I play, and think about this thing, the more I wish it had been playtested at some point during design. "
They definitely play tested it. Just not sure if I agree with their results though. Forgeworld apparently play tests but not as thoroughly as the Warhammer core design team.
"Or use Withering to lower its Toughness and watch it fail Burning Bright rolls. "
Yeah, this spell is doubly effective vs the Kdaii.
btw, regarding the Terrorgheist, i checked its rules last night. It can shoot in it’s shooting phase whether it’s in combat or not. If in combat, it can only scream at what it’s fighting. Pretty cool for the beastie.
"Conversely, i converted a goro action figure with doombull bits and choppy stumps into a ghorgon
Please post some pics. I would like to see this Goro figure
EDIT: At least you can’t fit 2 into a 2500pt army. That would cause major problems.
Still, no where near as broken as the Magma Cannon, which I think is actually broken.
So we’ve covered Beastmen, what would the Wood Elves best options be?
Bret’s can heroic killing blow the beastie (which would be pretty heroic).
I really hope the eventual model does it’s profile justice (including the massive move). Can’t wait to see what they come up with.
Before I respond properly, please use the edit button in the bottom right corner of your post, rather than double posting 4 minutes apart - there’s even a quick edit choice!
Of course WF don’t playtest as thoroughly - their real purpose is to supply cool, expensive models. The rules are so they have more use to people and allows them to better justify buying them. However, the problem isn’t playtesting so much as not thinking straight: 12" range weapons for 18pts/model as an example.
As I’ve already said (in a few posts now) - their whole army can have magical attacks (although Treekin, Treemen, Branchwraiths [I think?] and Treemen Ancients take double wounds) in the form of Fores Sirits (which can be given to casters too). They also have access to Beasts (extra strength in their anyway, but my man point is choice of lores), Life (makes ya tougher or heal up so it gets bogged down etc) and Athel Loren (stuck in a wood again? Bolt thrower again? etc etc), so have magic to take it out. They have plenty of magic bows, which ignore the -1 To Wound attribute, they have access to magic arrows (same principle) and have access to the same magic weapons as everyone else. They also have surprisingly cheap people to carry them - 70 points for Nobles. Give a cheap 5pt sword
Before I respond properly, please use the edit button in the bottom right corner of your post, rather than double posting 4 minutes apart - there’s even a quick edit choice!"
No problem Master Hashut’s Blessing. Thanks for fixing my post for me. Still new to this message board ish
You’re right about all the Wood Elf stuff, HB, and while I agree that everyone can name everything in almost every army that can kill the Destroyer, this is a trivial exercise: you still have to know you’ll be facing something like this when you make your list.
Because this is a FW book, and because it costs as much as the RFBRB, it’s already fighting against a wave of “what? No, those aren’t real rules…”-based apathy from opponents. I’d actually argue that it’s not fair to expect a random opponent in a pick-up game to be able to handle the Destroyer; the rules just aren’t part of the usual Warhammer lexicon. And that means the games won’t be fun. Someone springs this on you, you’re not going to go, “wow, what an exciting challenge!” you’re going to go, "this sucks."
Essentially, I think rules which occupy a nebulous area of legality in most players’ minds should probably go out of their way to not cause raised eyebrows. I’m not saying the Destroyer should suck: I’m saying it shouldn’t be a contender for Best Unit In The Game Ever.
It's not like the Destroyer can't just restrain his frenzy charge on Leadership ten, then make another leadership check to march his eighteen inches and avoid a bunch of the chaff.
If the chaff is placed 1" away at an angle, he can't turn away or turn on the spot without coming within an inch due to his massive base. He has to charge or you have to remove the chaff with shooting.
His first charge is also a crucial moment, as it will basically decide what he does for the next few turns (because he has to pursue/overrun)- if the CD player handled it right and the Destroyer is on-course its going to get messy, if not, the thing goes running off into the distance after chaff, abandoning your army. You can seriously lead it on a merry dance with 3 units of chaff. The bent part is that he only needs 1 turn to get back into the game from the other side of the board.
Even assuming all of that, they have now ultimately been forced to deploy and play their entire battle line in such a way that they are responding to the kdaii, rather than the entire rest of the legion army, which effectively has free reign.
This is the most powerful aspect of it. Not the M9 or the 6+D3 attacks or the -1 to wound, but the way it dominates the game. Your opponent has to react to it. Similar to Dragons or Greater Daemons, only its cheaper and isn't a Lord.
you still have to know you'll be facing something like this when you make your list.
Yes, it does come as a shock if you're not expecting it... Its more of a change of tactics - you have to accept you won't kill it with some of your usual responses to monsters and switch to damage limitation.
Still, no where near as broken as the Magma Cannon, which I think is actually broken.
This I definitely agree on. I thought it was 24" including
the template, but no... Its horrific against horde armies.
Essentially, I think rules which occupy a nebulous area of legality in most players' minds should probably go out of their way to not cause raised eyebrows. I'm not saying the Destroyer should suck: I'm saying it shouldn't be a contender for Best Unit In The Game Ever.
Its odd isn't it, because they basically did that with everything but the Destroyer (and the Magma Cannon, but I think that was plain error). The IG, BCs, Fireborn, all pretty underwhelming for their points. I'm not even going to mention Ironsworn...
Yes, surreally the list as a whole is balanced by the simple expedient of making most of the units completely awful and one or two insanely good! But that means every list ends up the same because there’s no competition for slots…
I think there is actually fair competition for slots as long as the game size is quite large, as many of the troops get dramatically better in large units.
IG are actually pretty good as a horde, very underwhelming in a regular formation.
Anything less than 5 Fireborn is probably a waste of time, whereas 6-8 are very good and a deathstar of them is mental.
1 ID is easily dealt with, 2 IDs is a different kettle of fish altogether, and 3… well, you get the idea. 3 Skullcrackers charging in will ruin anyone’s day…
And actually, after all my ranting about the Dreadquake, I’m probably going to start using it Deathshriekers can’t handle the really tough targets like STanks, Cauldron, Anvil, etc and they just don’t kill enough troopers.
But its true that the Destroyer is basically auto-pick if the list is for competitive play.
Thommy H: I agree - I don’t think you need to know it’s coming, but if you don’t, then the chances are that you’ll fail to deal with it, even though you have a few options to do so. It’s the combination of its stats, rules and points that cause it to dominate games and, has been said, means that you can either focus on the “bulk” of the army or the destroyer, but not really both.
Which, to me, is kind of boring. I can’t see anyone not including a Destroyer, so opponents are either going to be able to handle it (fun game) or they’re going to have everything in their army eaten by it (not a fun game) and, unless they happen to take the specific units that can deal with it (which they may not have models for, etc.) it’s going to be the latter.
In other words, you fight fire with fire and tailor your list or you have a crap time. And that’s just not how I like my Warhammer. It’s just rock-paper-scissors game design. If I wanted to play Magic: The Gathering, I would.
you fight fire with fire
Poor choice of words that does not work at all in warhammer :)
you fight fire with firePoor choice of words that does not work at all in warhammer :)
Well, the Kdaii are beings of fire so maybe it does?
With regards to what Thommy's said, it's the same with things like a War Hydra or a Hellpit Abomination just on a 'bigger' scale. With the armor save/handlers/regen/breath in a 2000pt game if you don't have something to deal with a pair of hydra's it's probably going to suck for you. I agree with your overall point though but think it's cool that the Chaos Dwarfs get a 'raging fire elemental', even though it will reshape the face of most games it partakes in.
That said, I think with the Destroyer especially it's a case of people will get burnt the first (couple?) time/s they tangle with it then figure ways of either minimising it's impact or taking it out. I personally would only take it sometimes, but then I don't exactly min-max when I play and like to try out different lists.
I think when the Forgeworld people were comming up with the rules they viewed the 'burning bright' rule as a major offset to it's massive damage potential. I just want to see the model. I mean movement 9 is as fast as a high elf super horse. I can see a case for it (ie, fire on the wind moves very quick,) and just hope the eventual model looks 'speedy' as well as 'killy'. I kinda picture it as a raging fireball that kinda blows forward through everything.
Overall, despite the 'issues' it brings, i'm glad the Destroyer (and the Kdaii in general especially) are in the Tamurkan rules
With regards to what Thommy's said, it's the same with things like a War Hydra or a Hellpit Abomination just on a 'bigger' scale.
So yeah...worse than them, then? That's not much of a supporting argument.
Not sure if the destroyer will become a victim of the “new craze of chaff”. As Braggonor alluded to, some of the more competitive types at our club who attend a lot of tournaments now build their armies around chaff, 1 is riding high with Lizardmen and the other one does brilliantly with O&G. When the aformentioned O&G book came out how many people invested in the arachnok spider which is seldom seen at the top tables, ogres do well with another new tactic which our empire general has copied with a lot of success “playing in the bubble”. The current view that the thundertusk with lots of gnoblars would be better than the stonehorn. I think the more people playing with chaos dwarfs the quicker the ways to negate the destroyer will be figured out, then it just comes down to the skill of the opponent, we have a couple of guys who copy the “big boys” but can’t grasp the finer details, oblique angles, leadership bubbles and points denial etc. Personally I wouldn’t use it that often in friendly games, but am hoping the terrorgheist gets a bit more hate!!
but am hoping the terrorgheist gets a bit more hate!!
? Why? Its a great big target that is very good against other single models and that's about it. Its good, certainly, but nowhere near broken.
I find the exact definition of “broken” varies amongst gamers but often boils down to “whatever beat me in my last game”.
Really, the problem isn’t how nails it is, so much as the price of the book/Warhammer Forge publication means most people won’t have bought/perused it and won’t expect any of its powerful stuff - M9, 4+ Ward, -1 To Wound, burns in base contact, etc.
With double hydras and hellpits, people know they may crop up and the availability and cheap cost of the Banner of Eternal Flame combined with Lores of Metal/Fire/Tzeentch etc, they aren’t too hard to combat.
The usual methods for removing big models don’t work too well (especially with flaming attacks) and people don’t know its rules (not so easily accessible/frequently used) - those are the difficulties and won’t get better with time to the extent it has with other monstrosities (such as hydras/hellpits/so on).
This message was automatically appended because it was too short.
With regards to what Thommy's said, it's the same with things like a War Hydra or a Hellpit Abomination just on a 'bigger' scale.So yeah...worse than them, then? That's not much of a supporting argument.
No that's not what I meant at all. I meant bigger scale as in the Kdaii Destroyer is more pts and therefore more powerful. A Destroyer/Hellpit/Hydra are all capable of wrecking battle lines if left unchecked, that's what I meant. I mean in terms of pure monster (excluding Storm of Magic) for normal games it's the most expensive thing points wise in the entire game isn't it? I actually think it's very balanced compared to the SOM Toad Dragon which is 25 more pts. If it didn't have the burning bright rule i'd call it broken, as it is, it's just really powerful. (kinda like a Chaos Daemon weapon which can bite back at it's owner. I get the feeling this is kinda what they were going for)
I think one of the reasons it's such a beast is that it's such a big points sink and if you do happen to lose it to a 1 shot it's such a big blow.
With regards to dealing with it, every army has access to 'immunity to flame' so should be able to 'hold it up' even if they can't kill it reliably.
I would say the Toad Dragon is powerful, but not more powerful - the same, potentially, but I’d say it’d barely come second more often than not.
Dragons are 360pts for Chaos, not including rider and can’t do that much damage. Stick a 400 point character (with magic items, marks, equipment and gifts) on top and it would still struggle, unless designed to be immune to fire (which, honestly, people don’t take very often on things that don’t care about fire one way or the other).