[Archive] Legion of Azgorh not 'Throne of Skulls' legal :-(

Grim_beard:

Hi everyone,

I’m afraid I bring (rather predictable) tidings of woe.

I spoke to Lisa at the Warhammer World events team today who has confirmed that the Legion of Azgorh list will NOT be a legal army in the Throne of Skulls tournament.

The reason for this (apparently) is that Throne of Skulls is a worldwide event, with tournaments being held in many different countries, and some areas do not have the same access to Forgeworld/WF models and rules as we enjoy in the UK.

So I’m afraid that means we won’t see any Dawi Zharr at ToS any time soon… unless it’s a ‘counts-as’ list. :frowning:

I might have to look into independent tournaments instead…

Grim

*Edited the title for sensitive souls who cannot bear the ambiguity :wink:

Thommy H:

Could you amend the thread title to say “Legion of Azgorh not allowed in one particular subset of tournaments I asked the organiser about”?

For the ten billionth time: GW does not use the tournaments it organises or supports as the arbiter of “game legality” or even general “tournament legality”. The design studio doesn’t take a personal hand in what GW events allow and therefore their relationship to what the writers of the game intend Warhammer to be - either at home or in the organised, quasi-competitive environment of a tournament - is non-existent.

I know you may not have been suggesting anything different, but if we have to rehash this inane topic one more time I’m going to destroy the internet.

Grim_beard:

Sorry to cause offence. I was simply trying to provide an answer to those of us waiting to see if Throne of Skulls would embrace the new Chaos Dwarf list.

Grim

Thommy H:

I wasn’t offended, it’s just that we’ve had this discussion over and over and it’s pretty tiresome. Your original thread title was a little misleading, and I could see how it would take us down the same route.

Bassman:

Yes, it’s better to specify the tournament name, otherwise it could be misunderstood :slight_smile:

Said this, that’s a bad new!

On Saturday when I went to my local GW official store they told me the list will be perfectly fine for independent and GW shop tournaments but not the “big” GW ones…

Well, I do not bother so much, I hardly play in tournaments :slight_smile:

Time of Madness:

I had heard the book was going to be useable at the Throne of Skulls this year. Not sure how they can argue it is not available elsewhere in the world. Almost all GW stores around here have it on the shelves (I’m sure it must be like that in other countries).

Time of Madness

cornixt:

When is ToS?

This message was automatically appended because it was too short.

Time of Madness:

It is a series of major tournys that spans a full year. I believe it usually starts up again every June. So this years would have started June 2011 - June 2012.

The Throne of Skulls are GW sanctioned tournys.

Time of Madness

Baader the Great:

The reason for this (apparently) is that Throne of Skulls is a worldwide event, with tournaments being held in many different countries, and some areas do not have the same access to Forgeworld/WF models and rules as we enjoy in the UK.

Grim_beard
???

I'm from Germany and I have the Tamurkhan book as well as WF models... it is no problem at all to get them.

RTMaitreya:

The reality is that you bring the army you want to play, and you participate in the tournament you want to play in. Each individual tournament organizer PERSON (not company, not HQ, not random jacks, not anyone else) determines whether you can use that army list or not.

LoA is perfectly acceptable for the Throne of Skulls if the guy who runs the tournament in your local store says its ok, and, every bit as importantly, if your opponent agrees to play you. Period, end of story. If you don’t like the answer you get from one store, you go to a different one. Voila, you get to play.

Believe it or not, this is YOUR hobby. Your opponents will (by and large) just be excited to play against a new type of opponent!

RTM

The reason for this (apparently) is that Throne of Skulls is a worldwide event, with tournaments being held in many different countries, and some areas do not have the same access to Forgeworld/WF models and rules as we enjoy in the UK.

Grim_beard

Hashut’s Blessing:

It is, however, deemed tournament legal as a rule of thumb - I say that because there are exceptions (I guess this is one, lol).

But, the word has been passed down from HQ that they are tourney legal.

Thommy H:

Are we still labouring under the delusion that GW HQ knows, cares or has any control over what individual tournaments allow? There is no such thing as “tournament legal”. The entire concept is semantically worthless because there is no unified tournament system and Warhammer isn’t designed for playing tournaments. They’re individual events, organised by individual people and they’ll decide individually what is and isn’t allowed.

Can we sticky something about this?

Hashut’s Blessing:

Thommy H: I think I made it quite clear that that wwas as a rule of thumb, not hard and fast. It’s more a case of they remove the list from armies allowed than add it, if you get my drift?

GWHQ does have control over the tournaments that they organise, anyhow (like GT etc).

Regardless, the point stands that it’s not big news when we’re not allowed at a tournament - if anyone finds out when we are allowed at one, by all means shout out to the world so people can show the list is being used, but use it in friendly games anyway, hahaha.

khedyarl:

I don’t know why you don’t get it, Thommy. Do you play in tournaments?

Nearly every tournament I’ve attended in sixteen years has been modelled after grand Tournament, Conflict, or Throne of Skulls (depending on when the tournament took place over those years). The armies allowed were modelled after those allowed in GT/Conflict/ToS. Most tournament organisers in British Columbia/Alberta use them as a template. So yes, Throne of Skulls not allowing Legion of Azgorh is a huge pain in the ass, because it is affecting the judgement of independent tournament organisers. To deny this is to willingly ignore the hundreds of tourneys ran every year following those same guidelines.

There are some tourney organisers that do their own thing. I was allowed to run the Indy GT list in the Out of the Basement tournament last summer in Edmonton, for example. However, I attended four other tournaments that did not allow Forgeworld, or any armylist that was printed outside of a Warhammer Armies: x book, whose reasoning when contacted was that Games Workshop didn’t allow them in their formal tournaments.

This isn’t rocket science. The guys that wrote the game sway peoples opinions, regardless if we would like them to or not. Your opinion, Thommy, is not the majority by a longshot. I’d like it to be; but it is not.

cornixt:

It’s probably best to wait to see the tournament rules first.

khedyarl:

Here’s hoping it was just a disconnect, and that they are going to make them ToS legal. It’ll make me a very happy man.

Thommy H:

I don't know why you don't get it, Thommy.  Do you play in tournaments?

khedyarl
Like most Warhammer players, I do not. Which is exactly my point - there's a vocal minority of tournament - or tournament-style - gamers active online. This creates the distinct impression on the internet that most people take part in tournaments, or at least use them as a barometer for how they should be enjoying their hobby. But this simply isn't true. Statistically, it can't be. I don't have the numbers, but there aren't enough tournaments going on for anything but a fraction of the hundreds of thousands of Warhammer players that must exist for GW to stay in business to have anything to do with them.

In another life, I was moderately active in the online community devoted to the pseudo-performance art of professional wrestling. That community was composed almost entirely of what are known as "smart" fans as opposed to "marks". Marks are fans who, at worst, think wrestling is a real athletic contest or, at best, buy into the drama at face value, without knowing anything about the backstage workings. A mark cheers for the good guys and doesn't question what he sees. A smart understands why the good guys are cheered and how a match is put together. They grasp the psychology of wrestling and what makes it compelling (to fans). But smart fans aren't the majority: we just thought we were. Again, statistically we couldn't be. And as much as we complained about how whatever wrestling show didn't cater to our interests, pushing bloated, steroid-fuelled bodybuilders at the expense of smaller, but more charismatic and athletic performers, the bottom line was that we weren't actually the market. We just convinced ourselves we were because we were the only market in evidence in our limited sphere of influence.

All this is by way of saying that I've seen this kind of thing before, and it happens everywhere. The internet can warp your perception of a community. The truth is that only the most fanatical fans - of anything - bother to become part of online communities devoted to their hobby. So, invariably, you get a cross-section of the kind of people who care most about their interest, which is not an accurate reflection of the real fanbase. You think most Warhammer players know or care which units are "broken"? Or even know or care about the concept of game balance? Most probably don't even think to question that kind of thing. I know I didn't when I started playing. The rules were just the rules.

Now, I know this isn't a discussion about "legality" and gaming attitudes per se, but it covers some of the same territory. I get the thing with tournaments. I get why they matter to the kind of gamer that cares about concepts like game balance - there has to be some kind of acid test, right? But Warhammer just isn't built that way, and the design studio, like it or not, think more like me than the guys who moan about balance and spend their time mathhammering on the internet. By chance or design, I share their philosophy of gaming and, trust me, no one at GW HQ - by which I mainly mean the design studio, so perhaps I should have clarified that - has any interest in defining things as "tournament legal" or not. Undoubtedly there is someone (or a group of someones) who work for GW that draw up a list of legal armies for grand tournaments or whatever, but it's not with the input of any higher-ups, I'm quite certain. They just don't approach the game they've written that way.

This is why I keep harping on about "tournament organisers" - a tournament is just one event, in which a certain number of people get together to play Warhammer with a quasi-competitive spirit. And they can all be completely different, and have different rules and arbitrary things which are allowed or disallowed. Long ago, Jervis Johnson spoke in a White Dwarf (this was in the days of 4th Edition Warhammer and 2nd Edition 40K) about each tournament being a puzzle that the participants had to solve. That's how they used to design the grand tournaments, and it so happened that a lot of the army list limitations they introduced (perversely to make the game less about extreme armies and magic item combos) were enshrined in later editions of their games. This has had the toxic effect of making some people think that GW games are therefore "tournament systems", sadly.

So I guess what I'm saying is that, when someone allows or disallows a certain army at a tournament, all it means is...well...exactly that: an army is allowed or disallowed at that tournament. It doesn't mean anything for ordinary games and it only means something to other tournaments because the organisers may be influenced by it. But that's their neuroses and shouldn't be read into. Don't blame GW for it, that's all I'm saying.

cornixt:

The real point is that non-tournament players will often look at the tournament rules to see what is considered “fair”, since GW just produce various rulebooks of varying “fairness” and tournament players/orgnaisers are looked at as experienced enough to know better. This then leads to the opposite - that if certain rules are not included in a tournament then they think they are probably “unfair” and therefore they don’t want to play them in a competitive environment (which can include against friends, as well as against unknown people who turn up at the games event). So regardless of whether people play in tournaments or whether the tournaments are set up to play the game in the best way, the tournament scene can dictate opinions about the rules amongst a significantly larger number of players than the tournaments cater to directly.

Thommy H:

I agree with you in principle, Cornixt, but I disagree with your definition of “often” in the first sentence of your post. I don’t think tournaments are as important a concept of everyone on the internet seems to think.

khedyarl:

I can one hundred percent appreciate where you’re coming from, Thommy. I understand that there are many more players that simply buy a mini here and there, or that play games with friends on weekends, etc, than there are guys who drive hours on end to go from tourney to tourney. But that doesn’t mean that either side is wrong. My point above still stands firm: many {I would dare say most, at least in the two provinces I frequent} tournament organisers look to Games Workshop for ground rules, then go from there. Which means that I will probably have to field my Chaos Dwarfs as Dwarfs, remodel them as Chaos Warriors, or something similiar if I want to attend with them. In theory, you’re correct. The organiser decides impartially which armies to include in their competitive environment. But it ends up being swayed by conflicts and GTs and ToS’s in practice.

As for tournaments not being an important concept - it depends on the player. To some players, that is why they play the game. I’d be suprised if anyone quite that hardcore plays Chaos-Dwarfs ultra-competitively, but to many people, the game is a means to competition. Excluding them is as foolish as excluding those players that love the game because of the backround, or, probably far more common, the guys and gals that just like to play with neat miniatures with some friends in a fantasy setting.

I wonder how many people on this forum have not attended a tournament? It would be neat to see the numbers that constitute our ranks on CDO. I think that it’s incredibly awesome we can all come together, competitive, casual, collectors, or any spectrum inbetween on a forum designed to talk about a race that up until three months ago had zero support from their company in what… fourteen years? I can’t even remember when the Bull Centaurs were sculpted now.