MLP:
In Tamurkhan, I have recently noticed that Drazhoath the Ashen seems to be very good value for points. Without exact points values so I don’t break forum guidelines, here’s a quick summary:
Drazhoath is a Level 4 wizard on a Bale Taurus with several magic Items and abilities.
Sorcerer-Prophet Level 4 on Bale Taurus with NO magic items works out at 45 points less than Drazhoath.
So from this we asume that Drazhoaths THREE magic items, unique ability, increased stats AND the increased breath attack of the Bale Taurus must be worth 45 points!
Considering similar Magic Items from the BRB his unique abilities I reckon he should be worth at least an extra 50-100 points, if not more!
So it seems to me that if you want a Level 4 on a Bale Taurus, You may as well always take Drazhoath unless you want a specific magic item combo. But in most cases I’d say Drazhoath works out better.
Grimbold Blackhammer:
He’s a great character except he doesn’t offer any magic defense whatsoever. I love my Chalice of Blood and Darkness but I settle for a dispel scroll when I have to. With all those Druchii witches and Slanns running about, not having one of those seems a bit risky (to me).
Grimbold Blackhammer
Thommy H:
Yeah, one of the things with special characters is that they often cost a bit less than it seems like they should because they lack certain options. You have to balance the cost of, say, their magic items not just against the actual value of the abilities they grant, but also against the price of not being able to take certain other useful items.
MLP:
He's a great character except he doesn't offer any magic defense whatsoever. I love my Chalice of Blood and Darkness but I settle for a dispel scroll when I have to. With all those Druchii witches and Slanns running about, not having one of those seems a bit risky (to me).
Grimbold Blackhammer
Grimbold Blackhammer
You can always load up your demonsmiths with cheap scrolls. I can never bring myself to the the CoBaD, that's his whole Magic points allowance so he then has no other defences! I can't remember but I thought one of Drazhoaths Items was magic related?
Yeah, one of the things with special characters is that they often cost a bit less than it seems like they should because they lack certain options. You have to balance the cost of, say, their magic items not just against the actual value of the abilities they grant, but also against the price of not being able to take certain other useful items.
Thommy H
This does make a lot of sense, but still for 45 points he's getting a lot of useful abilities. I'm struggling to find more than a couple of situations where Drazhoath wouldn't be a better option. The areas I see him being weak in are personal protection and as Grimbold said Magic defence, Although I reckon you can cover that with Demonsmiths.
metro_gnome:
i dunno you can take the chalice or scroll on a daemonsmith…
I’m not seriously looking at a Bale lord… but unless you went lvl 3…
it would seem that this guy has it all… and then some…
He also doesn’t have that roll for dark forge weapons… which seems huge imho…
edit:
<-------- Post 666 >_< \m/
MLP:
i dunno you can take the chalice or scroll on a daemonsmith...
I'm not seriously looking at a Bale lord... but unless you went lvl 3...
it would seem that this guy has it all... and then some...
He also doesn't have that roll for dark forge weapons... which seems huge imho...
metro_gnome
I think the Chalic is above the Demonsmith's macig item limit sadly.
I've always been let down by the Darkforged weapons, most times I roll the Eternal Hatred rule which I think is crap for him. It's just too unreliable.
metro_gnome:
yeah… and at the same time you hold back on magic weapons for him…
i think the wound increase alone is worth picking this guy…
extra WS and +1S breath weapon are gravy…
maded12:
I personally would never take any char over 500pts without a really decent save. 4+/5+ just isn’t good enough in my opinion. And then I’m not even mentioning the fact that his items are not that great. He has ok items, but come on… on my UBA LORD I don’t want ok items I want the absolute freaking best equipment I can get!
deadlydeceiver:
I’m with maded here. (Although he’s 3+/5+)
Yes, Drazhoat is nicely priced, but: He’s no fighter and the Taurus wants CC.
If I’d take a Bale Taurus, I’d equip my prophet with some CC-Gear (at last Blood of Hashut, Entch. Shield, Preservation)
Also, I think the only good item of Drazhoat is the Crucible.
5+ WS is nothing I’d consider for my 300+ prophet, always 4+
This S2 hit is a joke (should ignore AS at least)
His Waepon is even worse than any Darkforged Weapon. I’d like every result on the DF-tabel better than the scepters ability (ok, hatred being about the same level)
I think Draz would be great if:
He had Blood of Hashut,
a DF-weapon (and may choose the ability),
4+ save
and Loremaster (or at last choose his spells)
Of course with a slight increase in points (~600).
I think nowhere near OP and very fitting for the chief in charge.
Nevertheless, I’d never consider a Bale Taurus for a normal prophet ATM (just to expensive compared to the Great Taurus).
So if I’d really wanted to take one, I’d possibly go with Draz, as he has the S5-Breath and seems cheaper.
BTW: Why is everyone so hot about the Chalice of Blood and Darkness?
Am I missing something?
I think the Chalic is above the Demonsmith’s macig item limit sadly.
MLP
Nope, it’s 50 points. Just no shield then…
DD
MLP:
I'm with maded here. (Although he's 3+/5+)
Yes, Drazhoat is nicely priced, but: He's no fighter and the Taurus wants CC.
If I'd take a Bale Taurus, I'd equip my prophet with some CC-Gear (at last Blood of Hashut, Entch. Shield, Preservation)
Also, I think the only good item of Drazhoat is the Crucible.
5+ WS is nothing I'd consider for my 300+ prophet, always 4+
This S2 hit is a joke (should ignore AS at least)
His Waepon is even worse than any Darkforged Weapon. I'd like every result on the DF-tabel better than the scepters ability (ok, hatred being about the same level)
I think Draz would be great if:
He had Blood of Hashut,
a DF-weapon (and may choose the ability),
4+ save
and Loremaster (or at last choose his spells)
Of course with a slight increase in points (~600).
I think nowhere near OP and very fitting for the chief in charge.
Nevertheless, I'd never consider a Bale Taurus for a normal prophet ATM (just to expensive compared to the Great Taurus).
So if I'd really wanted to take one, I'd possibly go with Draz, as he has the S5-Breath and seems cheaper.
BTW: Why is everyone so hot about the Chalice of Blood and Darkness?
Am I missing something?I think the Chalic is above the Demonsmith's macig item limit sadly.
MLP
Nope, it's 50 points. Just no shield then...
DD
deadlydeceiver
My bad I thought it was 100 for some reason.
All your points about Drazhoath are pretty conclusive, I think you've convinced me he's not so good for the points! If only you wrote the Army list I like your ideas for what he should be.
deadlydeceiver:
My bad I thought it was 100 for some reason.
MLP
:o And you thought someone would pay that for the chalice?
Please, anyone tell me, what's so good about this item...
All your points about Drazhoath are pretty conclusive, I think you've convinced me he's not so good for the points!
MLP
Well, I'm sorry ;P
In the end, he's ok for the points (a normal Prophet with his equipment would be quite more expensive). It's just, that you wouldn't equip a prophet on Taurus like this.
I think he's playable in a friendly environment and might even do quite well (+6 to cast? Yes please!)
He's just no high end char and the standard version is more effective in most cases.
If only you wrote the Army list I like your ideas for what he should be.
MLP
Thanks :hat off Thought about this a while ago and came to the conclusion, that those small changes would have made him a real option. Easy but effective. Especially Loremaster/choosing spells would have been a great and fitting bonus for the "Prophet of Hashut".
But well, that remains fantasy...
DD
Grimbold Blackhammer:
The reason I like the Chalice is simple. In your opponent’s magic phase your enemy has more dice than you. You block the spells you want and burn through your entire dispel pool usually leaving your enemy only 2-4 dice left to cast with. Then you suck D3 dice away (you’re already out of dice so you don’t lose any) and he quite often can’t try and pull off that last big spell. Or when there is a big disparity between dice pools in your own magic phase (like rolling double 4s, 5s, or 6s for example), losing 3 power dice is painful but dropping an opponent from a reasonably-sized pool to just 1 or 2 dice is just cruel (and effective).
Grimbold Blackhammer
Bitterman:
The reason I like the Chalice is simple. In your opponent's magic phase your enemy has more dice than you. You block the spells you want and burn through your entire dispel pool usually leaving your enemy only 2-4 dice left to cast with. Then you suck D3 dice away (you're already out of dice so you don't lose any) and he quite often can't try and pull off that last big spell.
Grimbold Blackhammer
Oooh, that's nasty! I'd been playing it that the Chalice must be used at the start of the phase - it didn't occur to me that you could save it until you're out of dispel dice anyway.
[edit] Having checked the wording, I'd suggest that is how it was intended to be used anyway. Granted, it
does not say that it must be used at the start of the phase... but neither does it say that you can only use it once per phase. The latter is surely obvious, nobody would dispute that; and it seems clear to me that the former is intended, too (if less obviously). I suspect it would have to cost rather more points if it were able to be used at any time in the phase.
Either way, still a useful item. If the opponent rolls low for the winds, you can use the Chalice to turn "low-power" into "no-power". If you roll high for the winds, you can use the Chalice to cripple the opponent's dispel pool at only a small cost to your own power pool. Definitely worth taking IMO. [/edit]
Bitterman:
On Drazoath: yeah, the lack of a decent save is a real killer. I’d rather pay more points but protect them properly, than take a “good value” special character who nonetheless dies too easily for my liking. (It’s kind of like a “buy one get one free” offer at the supermarket, on cabbage. Good value? Maybe… but I don’t like cabbage). Cinderbreath’s S5 Breath Weapon is awesome, but that implies the best place for him is combat - where Drazoath’s mediocre defence becomes a real problem. So regrettably I’d rather take a normal Prophet and tool him up for the job, and just accept that a S4 Breath Weapon is still quite good.
The only thing I’m not sure of with Drazoath is how the heck you pronounce his name…
zhangyi:
The reason I like the Chalice is simple. In your opponent's magic phase your enemy has more dice than you. You block the spells you want and burn through your entire dispel pool usually leaving your enemy only 2-4 dice left to cast with. Then you suck D3 dice away (you're already out of dice so you don't lose any) and he quite often can't try and pull off that last big spell.
Grimbold Blackhammer
Oooh, that's nasty! I'd been playing it that the Chalice must be used at the start of the phase - it didn't occur to me that you could save it until you're out of dispel dice anyway.
[edit] Having checked the wording, I'd suggest that is how it was intended to be used anyway. Granted, it does not say that it must be used at the start of the phase... but neither does it say that you can only use it once per phase. The latter is surely obvious, nobody would dispute that; and it seems clear to me that the former is intended, too (if less obviously). I suspect it would have to cost rather more points if it were able to be used at any time in the phase.
Either way, still a useful item. If the opponent rolls low for the winds, you can use the Chalice to turn "low-power" into "no-power". If you roll high for the winds, you can use the Chalice to cripple the opponent's dispel pool at only a small cost to your own power pool. Definitely worth taking IMO. [/edit]
Bitterman
so...u mean the chalice can only be used at the start of the magic phase however?