Jossy:
Starting this thread as to not derail the Deamons thread.
So lets discuss some LOA vs Skaven matchups
I made the off hand comment that LOA was a good counter to Skaven. Let me explain why.
First off, I will point out that what would often be considered a ‘standard’ build man not be as well matched vs the Skaven, but we do in fact have the tools to handle Skaven better than most. So I will go through some units/ideas to start a discussion.
Magic: For matchups against Skaven I would recommend Death and Fire. A sorcerer prophet with death and deamonsmith with fire covers all bases. Skaven armies rely on key characters to project threats. The key for any army is removing these threats. Obvious one is the Grey Seer. Sniping him or engineers is critical to gaining advantage. As is a fireball thrower to assist in getting rid of gutterrunners and HPA’s etc
Artillery: Hellcannons, Death Shriekers and magma cannons. Could one want for any more? Hellcannons have great synergy with death magic for the auto panic tests and -3 Ld bombs. Death shriekers 5" st3 pie plate has the similar effect. Early panics can have a massive effect in game strategy. The object is repeat testing. Always build around a strategy that is easy to achieve and can be repeated. Magma cannons have a similar effect, but add to that they are great grey seer/bell snipes and another counter to HPA.
K’daai: The Destroyer is average against this matchup. I know some see LOA, and the K’daai D is an auto include. However he is not the answer to everything. Leave him at home vs Skaven. Bring another Helcannon and Death Shrieker! Normal K’daai on the other hand can be good here. The burning body hits pre combat are a boon, but the trick is getting them there intact to make combat
Bull centaurs: Mixed bag here. Good armour means they can help clear out chaff, but will get bogged down by slaves. Gutter runners will easily avoid them with a skilled general.
Hobgoblins: Cheap and plentiful (as far as LOA goes). blocks of 40 + will do well here. Equipped with extra hand weapons we have a small advantage once combat is met for not many points. At least they are more viable vs Skaven (who cares if they are 13th’d off) than other matchups.
BC Taur’uks: Mixed bag here. Enough of a threat to assassinate characters, and potentially give an HPA a run for its money, but still vulnerable to magic missile spam and being bogged down by slaves. An alternative to not taking the K’daai
Infernal Guard: Numbers are key here. Don’t bother with small units of troops, as they will be the target for 13th. Large blocks and no equipment upgrades. Bodies are key. Each Dawi is more than a match for Skaven. Build units to weather the storm and survive the game. This is your points sink.
As far as army wide tactics go, LOA’s objective in this match is not decisive combats, but artillery. Your army should be built around protecting your war machines, and letting them + magic do the work. I have had practice games vs Skaven where I have managed to panic large portions of their army first turn. Other games have all been about out shooting them. Getting the right deployment is key here, and it always helps to achieve first turn, which should be more often than not since we will have far fewer drops, thus netting the +1. redirectors are not so important since its not often skaven will run at you. Forget targeting the slave blocks, go for the juicy center and target units with characters in (like orb bearing warlocks) and high value/high threat targets like HPA’s and WLC.
The above is simply my thoughts/experience vs Skaven and I hope it will preclude discussion. As someone who has come from playing Tomb Kings I find LOA very forgiving al be it a very elite army with a lot of easy answers.
Thommy H:
Maybe this thread about tactics should be in the Tactics forum?
Gunnerson:
Very good guide with one problem that I see (keeping in mind I have not yet been able to play my LoA army) is that you are supposing a preplanned game aganst a specific opponent. In a tournament situation particulary a comped one the guide does not work as well. In the current edition the spell list is selected at the time of army creation and can not be changed to match up aganst a particular opponent. The warmachine/artillery portion is the other place that I might comment on. In a tounament particulary comped ones you cant really double up on warmachines without taking a huge hit.
Jossy:
Very good guide with one problem that I see (keeping in mind I have not yet been able to play my LoA army) is that you are supposing a preplanned game aganst a specific opponent. In a tournament situation particulary a comped one the guide does not work as well. In the current edition the spell list is selected at the time of army creation and can not be changed to match up aganst a particular opponent. The warmachine/artillery portion is the other place that I might comment on. In a tounament particulary comped ones you cant really double up on warmachines without taking a huge hit.
Gunnerson
Yeah its a good point to make. If you look at it from a tournament perspective where you have bought an 'all rounder' list, it probably precludes some options. It dosn't invalidate them all though, as most suggestions would work against many armies (and possibly unexpected by some opponents).
I know in the local Meta, people regularly include a cheap mounted hero with 2+ flaming ward to negate things like K'daai.
Re: Thommy. I should really look further down the forum list before posting. If an admin would care to shift this topic into Tactics, cheers
richard barby:
deathrockets are gold vs rats i would think about making them hellbound in one off games bypass the stormbanner that just about every rat army has one. Also with the rocket not bad at having a go at the bell if you want to snipe it you hit the bell like a cannon only strength 8 but you still hit both targets at full strenght.
back you up on basic warriors heaps better than rat units in combat even stormvermin
rubencm81:
Magic: For matchups against Skaven I would recommend Death and Fire. A sorcerer prophet with death and deamonsmith with fire covers all bases. Skaven armies rely on key characters to project threats. The key for any army is removing these threats. Obvious one is the Grey Seer. Sniping him or engineers is critical to gaining advantage. As is a fireball thrower to assist in getting rid of gutterrunners and HPA's etc
Snipping Grey seer with a 2+ ward save? Obviously you havent played vs 2 grey seers (and 10 engineers to re-direct your blocks) casting 13th both of them every turn :hat off
Baggronor:
Snipping Grey seer with a 2+ ward save? Obviously you havent played vs 2 grey seers (and 10 engineers to re-direct your blocks) casting 13th both of them every turn
Yep. A proper top tables Skaven tournament list is going to have all the toys, so death sniping the Seer is a waste of magic dice. Take a Lv1 on Fire and 6 Dice Fireball the Abom asap. I only use Lv1s or 2s these days.
I find the 2 Seers list worse when one is throwing around Plague spells and the other Ruin (13th has too high a chance of failing to cast, so they often go for more reliable spells). 2D3 warpstone tokens too. Cast Wither then hit them with the Doomrocket, etc. It's horrible.
The Chalice is probably worth it here, even if all it does is reduce his power dice. Even then, he'll just pop his warpstone tokens though :sick
Take 2 Magma Cannons for those nice, deep formations, and a Hellcannon to pound the Grey Seer's bunker. That auto-panic test at -1 Ld could win the game before it has even begun ;) I would take the Hellcannon over Deathshriekers, partly for the panic test, but also because it can fight and isn't scared of Gutter Runners. Shield your Magma Cannons behind your blocks to protect them from the inevitable 2 units of 10.
Just pray the Stormbanner runs out early :~
A Skullcracker could actually be good vs Skaven, provided you can deal with the Doomwheel early on. Brass Orb/Crack's Call are a worry, but Skaven basically have counters for everything anyway.
LoA has more options vs Skaven than most, but against 'that' top table Skaven list (the Ben Johnson one and variants thereof), you're going to need to be lucky just like everyone else.