[Archive] Magma Cannon vs Deathshrieker

Coopervisor:

I’m new to Fantasy and am planning/collecting/building my chaos dwarf force, however I’m unsure on the warmachines I should be taking.

Obviously it’s a large part of a chaos dwarf list, but should I be taking 1 of each of the special warmachines, or doubling up with a specific type? Are there diminishing returns for taking more than 2? If not, again is it best to take all as one type or a mix?

Does it depend on who I’m going to be fighting? (VC and Dark Elves are my likely opponents in the medium term)

Also to tag on to the end of this, is the special allowance better taken as a destroyer or as more warmachines?

MLP:

Magma cannons are generally regarded as being the more powerful war machine. Deathshriekers are still worth it though and have two ammo choices to choose from good versatility. I’d personally go with the models you like the look of as they’re all good in their own way.

Destroyers are a rare choice rather than special so you can have plenty war machines as well.

Coopervisor:

Magma cannons are generally regarded as being the more powerful war machine. Deathshriekers are still worth it though and have two ammo choices to choose from good versatility. I'd personally go with the models you like the look of as they're all good in their own way.

Destroyers are a rare choice rather than special so you can have plenty war machines as well.

MLP
Thanks, I was thinking maybe 1 of each to start with for variation in not only rules, but also the miniatures.

Ah my mistake, I got the special and rare mixed up! What I meant to ask was whether it is better to take the destroyer or use the rare allowance for rare warmachines like the Dreadquake?

Do Chaos Dwarves better as an all out gun line army, or do they need something hard hitting like the destroyer as well?

Bassman:

The Destroyer cannot be compared to warmachines. This big guy is a killing machine that shows no mercy to anybody :wink:

but warmachines are fun (even tough with the no more guessing range rule they took away most of the fun :frowning: ), so why not?

I love to use 2 deathshriekers and one magma cannon and a Destroyer.

I am planning a new list without the destroyer, not because I think the new list will be more effective but because it’s nice to change :wink:

So next time Warmachines bonanza with the Hellcannon plus rockets, plus magma cannon. I’ll let you know what happened :smiley:

Norngahl:

I'm new to Fantasy and am planning/collecting/building my chaos dwarf force, however I'm unsure on the warmachines I should be taking.

Obviously it's a large part of a chaos dwarf list, but should I be taking 1 of each of the special warmachines, or doubling up with a specific type? Are there diminishing returns for taking more than 2? If not, again is it best to take all as one type or a mix?

Does it depend on who I'm going to be fighting? (VC and Dark Elves are my likely opponents in the medium term)

Also to tag on to the end of this, is the special allowance better taken as a destroyer or as more warmachines?

Coopervisor
As always you should ask yourself- what shall an entry do for you?

Template Weapons:

Template Weapons are meant to destroy units. The higher the strength, the better they are, as wounding gets easier and failing armoursaves as well (or simply negating these in most cases).

Let's look on the Magma Cannon. With a very precise shooting (hitting almost ever if you place the template 2" in front of the enemy and then let it bounce), a high Strengh (S5) which wounds most models on 2+ and the "hard stuff" still on 3+, while reducing armour saves by 4, having flaming attacks AND causing D3 wounds per hit, these weapons are heavily destructive and easily render most regiments totally useless in 1-2 turns.

The Deathshrieker has a bigger template (5") an a bit less precise shooting (through they have the "auto-target") because the template not just bounces 2-10 inches, but can also move in any direction rather than just forwards and backwards like the Magma Cannon. Again, if it scatters off the enemy, it's just the 3" template (still better than nothing). As well, it's just S3 flaming attacks without the ability of causing D3 wounds. Sure, if a W3, AS5+ Unit got hit by the 5" template, the Deathshrieker will cause equal results like the Magma Cannon just because it get's more models under the plate, which make up for the poorer Strength.

But when it comes down to unit killing one must admit, Magma cannons are more precise AND more destructive, for a lousy bucks more. So we see- while DR are pretty decent at killing light stuff, MC are equal at this task and way better if aimed at harder stuff. So, even if a bit more expensive, take the MC over the DR if you want to kill units.


Single shot weapons


Usually Bolt Throwers and Cannons fall into this category. They are designed for killing lone and real nasty stuff like monsters or this or that charakter, warmachines or similar tough stuff with multiple wounds.

The Magma Cannon has, if aimed onto a monster, a single S5 hit that causes D3 wounds. While me thinks bolt throwers are lousy at killing tough stuff compared to cannons, a S5 D3 wounds hit is a joke against any serious target like Dragons, Hellpits, Steamtanks, Terrorgheists, Warmachines or something similar. First you have to wound, which is not sure with S5, than you will most likely only cause 2 wounds and this only if the target has no fair armoursave. A Steamtank will lough at the MCs, as with T6, W10 and 1+AS you won't get rid of this one. A Necrosphinx will only be wounded on a 6- which is pretty poor, even your Hobgoblins with bows will do more damage than the MC in this case. So while the MC shines against UNITS, it sucks against Monsters/Chars/equal Stuff.

That's where the Deathshrieker Rockets begin to shine. With S8 and D6 wounds they can seriously harm enemy monsters. Suddenly a steamtank is wounded on 2+ and left with a 6+ AS, after this taking 3-4 wounds in most cases. Take 2 DRs and it's left over with 3 wounds after 2 hits, which will definately scares the empire player and forces him to hold this one back more than he wants to. Score two hits on a Dragon and 320 points go to the ground dead. Even enemy artillery get's wounded on 3+ and than has to take d3 hits. Problem is - you must score the hits. In most cases, you will only hit the target on a "hit" or if you throw 2 or 4 inches of scattering, which means a chance around 40% you might score a hit. This is why Deathshriekers should be taken in pairs, so you can score at least a hit per round in common. Sure, a usual cannon would perfectly do the job as it is S10 and more reliable at hitting, but for the same point cost it does not bring a 5" plate.

But back to the MC and the DR: The DR clearly wins against tough targets, just because of S8 vs. S5 and D6 vs. D3. If you want to kill hard stuff, you need a DR (or at least an Iron Daemon, but therefore you get 3 DR) if you want to kill it at range, but most targets you fire the Single shot weapons at you will find them not wanting them in combat with your units.

Overall thoughts:

If it comes down to units, MC wins as it kills stuff more reliable. Therefore DR cost less and have the ability to get of a single shot- in times of monster mash and one-man-army-madnesses, this is golden.

If I had to decide I'd take the DR, just because it's much more versatile and can get me the high S D6 wounds shot which CDs need to deal with the big ones. If you got a Daemonsmith (or two! :))close to it, it's accuracy goes up pretty equal to a magma cannon/cannon, which shouldn´t be missed.

As well, if combat breakes out, a DR will more easily find a left over target than the MC, just due to range and versatile ammo. And for 100 points it's almost a present for what it does.

If you have to decide what to get, get 2x DR. If you can choose at 2k, get 2x DR and 1x MC. If you opt for win, get 2x DR AND 2xMC. 2xDR+1xMC is a pretty solid firebase that is versatile and cheap at 345 points, none armylist should miss that.

P.S. If you don't have a Kdaai Destroyer or don't want to play one, take a look on the Hellcannon and Dreadquake Mortar as well- both are excellent choices, they are just outshined by the Destroyer ;)

@Mutter
No, Steamtank is T6 an W10. http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440093a&prodId=prod2120007

MLP:

Personally in my rares I’ll take a destroyer and some hobgoblin wolf raiders. The destroyer is possibly the most powerful monster in the game and I’m not a fan of the seige giant or dreadquake models anyway.

You can definitely go with a gun line army maybe it’s what the chaos dwarves do best! All the damage from the army is from war machines and the destroyer. Magic is good too but not compared to them.

Mutter:

Suddenly a steamtank is wounded on 2+ and left with a 6+ AS, after this taking 3-4 wounds in most cases.

Norngahl
Steamtank is T10 ...

evil smurf:

I’m new to warmachines myself. With the Magma Cannon if the target unit is behind 24" (range of the Magma Canon) can I start the template at max range and then hope to drift it onto the target unit?

nilbog:

I'm new to warmachines myself. With the Magma Cannon if the target unit is behind 24" (range of the Magma Canon) can I start the template at max range and then hope to drift it onto the target unit?

evil smurf
Yes. You place the starting point up to 24" away, then roll for the 'bounce'. So it could go up to 34".

evil smurf:

I'm new to warmachines myself. With the Magma Cannon if the target unit is behind 24" (range of the Magma Canon) can I start the template at max range and then hope to drift it onto the target unit?

evil smurf
Yes. You place the starting point up to 24" away, then roll for the 'bounce'. So it could go up to 34".


nilbog
Thanks

gIL^:

DR’s are good ive noticed, Killing units isnt a problem for CD’s with blocks of IG and Iron Daemons you really need something to get rid of the big stuff and DR’s are the answer. I take 3 with a daemonsmith.

cornixt:

It looks to me like one of each is a better proposition than double of either. Gives you a bit of flexibility.

aka_mythos:

I find 2x DR and 1x MC to work well. You really only “need” one Magma Cannon and the redundancy of the Rockets make up for their more hit or miss nature.

Coopervisor:

Thanks for all the advice folks, it’s useful to see how other people run warmachines. My regular opponent will be running a VC list, with at least 2 big blocks of infantry (40 skeletons and 40 Grave guard), then some other units (direwolves, black knights and possibly some spirit hosts), but I haven’t really studied his list in detail.

From this information, knowing that I’m going to be facing large infantry blocks walking towards me, I think using magma cannons over rockets is the way forward. From what I can gather, it’s going to be a case of needing to shoot down more troops than he can raise back up again, with the aim of weakening his infantry before they tie me up in combat.

I’m also leaning towards a deathquake over a destroyer, although I suspect I’ll try to proxy each in my first few games to get a feel for which is better.

On the topic of warmachines, what are people’s opinions on going for hellbound on them? Maybe not worth it on the magma cannons or rockets, but on the dreadquake with ogre?

MLP:

On the topic of warmachines, what are people's opinions on going for hellbound on them? Maybe not worth it on the magma cannons or rockets, but on the dreadquake with ogre?
I think you only need them to be hellbound if you expect them to be in combat because you're not protecting them or they are used on their own covering a flank or something.

Ant:

On the topic of warmachines, what are people's opinions on going for hellbound on them? Maybe not worth it on the magma cannons or rockets, but on the dreadquake with ogre?
I think you only need them to be hellbound if you expect them to be in combat because you're not protecting them or they are used on their own covering a flank or something.


MLP
I disagree. I think the main advantage of the hellbound upgrade is themagical attacks. With the new VC knocking around I think a hellbound magma cannon is the perfect thing for taking out ethereals which tend to be T3, no armour and multiwound.

Samanos:

steam tank is T10, as an empire player i can assure you of that.

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1440040a_FAQ_EmpireV1_2.pdf

Sorceror-Prophet Nalgrund:

I wouldn’t call Deathshrikers reliable monster killers. You are at the extreme mercy of the scatter dice. Even targeting a big model like a monster or warmachine, if you roll higher than say 4" on the artillery, you miss entirely. And hoping to roll direct hit isn’t a reliable strategy. In rough terms, you need three DR batteries to reliably get one direct hit (or near direct) per turn with demo rockets. The anti-infantry blast doesn’t matter, S3 doesn’t worry most armies overly, and it’s positively pathetic next to Magma, Hellcannon or Dreadquake.

If you are facing down big nasty monsters, Lore of Death is your answer. Spirit Leech is nasty (monsters often don’t have good Leadership), and Purple Sun will not only eat them, but half the enemy army if you get a good launch off. Hashut has a nice sniper spell as well, but unless you take it on both Sorcerers (sadly our Daemonsmiths can’t take it), you may not get it.

Also, you’re forgetting the Destroyer. He’ll eat most monsters in Fantasy with very little issue, and he’s very resistant to warmachines and most magic nukes (high Initiative makes ‘Sun’ and ‘Pit’ too chancy, ‘Dwellers’ won’t do much to his high Strength, excellent ward save makes warmachine fire unlikely to kill him unless they give up all of it to gank, which means the rest of your army isn’t being shot). Anything a demo rocket could kill, a Destroyer will usually slap down far more reliably (there is no scatter in combat after all).

Bassman:

I think you only need them to be hellbound if you expect them to be in combat because you're not protecting them or they are used on their own covering a flank or something.

Ant
I disagree. I think the main advantage of the hellbound upgrade is themagical attacks. With the new VC knocking around I think a hellbound magma cannon is the perfect thing for taking out ethereals which tend to be T3, no armour and multiwound.
Well, actually both.... sometimes magical attacks are a waste, as you are not fighting ethereals every time ;) But very useful when you face them!

Extra wound and extra T is really useful. I love to place the hellbound rocket next to the Helllcannon with a Demonsmith. The two warmachines can secure a flank, I'm pretty sure if the enemy wants to get rid of them has to spend the entire battle! Most of light warmachine hunters have big problmes to get rid of them! And the Demonsmith with its 2 S5 attacks, magic weapon, T4 3+ armor save and potion of foolhardiness.... is really handy to countercharge light threats. :hat off

About the Rocket as monster hunter.
During RH times I fielded 4 bolt throwers being actually sure to not see bloodthirsters and big monsters roaming freely like now.... but two rockets, one with a Demonsmith nearby, the other with the sorcerer prophet, are annoying. Both of them reroll to hit (most of the times). You have good chances to wound the big guy. Not to kill him... but it's ok!
My only complain is: why not flaming attacks? It's a rocket filled with explosive and burning fuel... it would be great against regeneration :(

The S3 template effect is nice even tought not a battle winner. Again, reroll is great to be sure you place the big pie upon that 30 bloodletters unit or 40 ghouls unit ;) Get rid of two ranks at time, let them waste magic to rebuild units or make them useless in C&C... why not? ;)