First and foremost I would like to say thank you to all of the devoted Chaos Dwarf players on this site. If it weren�?Tt for this site, the people that run it, and all the other sites and people devoted to non-GW supported races I feel that the game of warhammer as a whole would lose some of its creative opportunities. What I mean by this is that by creating and gaming with these races, that there is no established models for, we expand the game as a whole by putting out to the public new techniques and ways of converting and painting models that would probably not been tried without the cause that creating a unsupported race has to offer.
I hope that made sense.
This brings up the point of my topic. When one does want to dive down the path of creating a conversion army, an army where almost everything has been changed to a different theme, are we limited by social norms? What I�?Tm really trying to say is if someone wants to do an Imperial Guard army and use a WWII German Waffen SS theme is there something out there saying this is wrong? Are we limited even if we don�?Tt affiliate, support, or even condone what the source of our inspiration is or was? If we are taking from our source no matter what it was just the looks and/or color schemes were are we somehow offending people and going to not be able to take these armys out in public?
Personally I wanted to a Witch Hunters army. If any of you have seen the anime Hellsing OVA I wanted to use the Iscariot forces as a theme. Now for several reasons mainly money reasons I never followed through on this army but one of my main concerns during the planning stages of this army is that the main troopers looked very similar to KKK members and I was worried that people would be offended by this even though I have no affiliation or love toward the KKK or anything they do.
So this is my question and I purpose it to you, the Chaos Dwarf community, because by leaps and bounds you are the most creative Warhammer community out there. So in your opinions are we limited in what we can theme our army�?Ts after or should we not be worrying about the general public and just do what we think will look great on the table top?
All kinds of responses and personal experiences are welcome�?�
Sometimes people have difficulty with separating the game from the real world, and forget the self-contradictions. They are fine with you playing an army that murders and enslaves people in order to expand their empire, but as soon as you stick a swastika on something they suddenly get uneasy as if you are promoting anti-semitism. And then they go home and play Wolfenstein.
It’s pretty silly, but it’s something you have to deal with.
There’s a difference, though, between a pretend nation that does pretend atrocities to pretend victims and an actual historical nation that committed the foulest crimes in human history. The only real limits on your creativity are the bounds of taste - it’s like a sick joke: sometimes it’s funny to tell the one about the homesick abortion and sometimes it’s just not appropriate. Only you can say whether your gaming group is the right audience for 28mm Nazis.
Ever had a joke not go down well and hurt someone. Like Thommy said you’ve got to know who your with and what they feel (which is the really really hard bit) to know for sure about possible divisive issues
Well, cant really see why you would want to do a Waffen SS theme for W40K and not just go for a historical army if you like to paint cammo. There are plenty of 28mm, 20mm and 15mm to choose from…
As for KKK, I dont think that anyone would have a problem with an army of hooded men in white for WFB. Dont know much about the clan but I guess it would be good not to use their insignia if they have any.
I would not be too concerned about the appearance of your figures. There are plenty of historical gamers who play WWII re-enactment tabletop battles and no-one bats an eyelid about the insignia on the German troops.
Also, there are so many styles of military uniforms in Warhammer 40K Imperial Guard regiments that I doubt than anyone would look twice at the style of uniform you seek to use.
The only hesitation I would have is putting swastika insignia on a unit that is not depecting something that is historically accurate, where the insignia would be acceptable. But is sounds like you just plan a similar style uniform (which I would condsider to be OK) rather than use of the actual insignia (which is more questionable).
On the KKK stuff, you only have to look at the Necromunda figures where one unit (I do not recall the name) are all running around in tall pointed hoods just like KKK (admitedly they are painted bright red (or somtimes blue if linked to one of the other Necromunda gangs).
Also look at some of the religious processions/events in Spain today where the participants parade in full KKK style regalia with the pointed hoods etc. Basically the KKK borrowed much older European religious insignia for their use in the US.
Mind you I am writing from Australia where all this is not as important as in the US and Europe (as I found out in a recent trip to Europe where people still consider WWII to be important and a çurrent’ issue while, as an Australian, it is all something that you just see on the history channel.)
Again, it’s about audience. A KKK theme might be sort of okay in Britain and mainland Europe but I wouldn’t try it in America where they’re very much still an active hate group and are responsible for monstrous crimes in living memory.
There will always be some people, who will have a problem with symbols or shemes what are similar to the SS, the KKK or others. But when you have problems with the shemes of such totalitarian systems, you shouldn’t even play armies of monsters and murders, what try to eradicate whole populations.
Man, do your style. A Miniature painter is an artist, who transports with his work a message, and as long as these message is not illegal you are free to do what you want!
well, painting swastica could be considered illegal in some countries (austria for example), and just purely tasteless in many other places. personally, if i were to play e.g. an ss-force in fow or some steel legion builds, it would depend on the mindset of the owner… i would probably refuse to play against your nazis if you sympathise with the ideology… otoh, i play soviets in fow and vostroyans in 40k, it could just as well turn out that i’d happily accept the possibility to kick your **** !
I remember a debate on the Warhammer forum a year or two ago, where someone had done his Space Marines with nazi symbols and some people went berserk. Clearly they found the act of painting space marines with real world iconography that basically matches the Imperium’s ideology to be offensive, but its fine if they’re painted in primary colours. I did find the whole thing to be a bit tasteless but still found the debate pretty interesting.
What I�?Tm really trying to say is if someone wants to do an Imperial Guard army and use a WWII German Waffen SS theme is there something out there saying this is wrong?
I think it depends on your background and viewpoint (obviously). If I were to do an Imperial Japan-themed IG army (something that would actually work very well with the IG rules of shooting people for disobedience ;P) I would expect some people to be offended; I wouldn’t want to use the army in a store in China or Korea for example. Over there, the Rising Sun flag is more taboo than the swastika. In the UK, I doubt it would get much criticism, particularly from my generation and younger.
Similarly there was an awesome diorama that someone did of some Imperial Guardsmen about to rape a cornered Eldar. Sounds awful until you see the diorama and the narrative. The responses from most gamers on various forums were exactly what you would expect, with most people frothing at the mouth like rabid Daily Mail readers that someone had let the real world into their hobby, where xenophobia and genocide is manly and cool because the good guys in nice blue armour do it, and a few people with broader minds pointing out that it was probably the most interesting thing anyone had done in the hobby for years. Its an insightful commentary on the nature of wargames and the hobby, and the reactions to it said a lot about gamers. It was a step too far for many, who can’t seem to get enough of macho guns and war, yet aren’t mature enough to confront the reality behind those things.
Bottom line is: people will get offended when it gets too close to home. How close is too close depends on the individual. Use your common sense if you’re worried about offending people. Or just paint everything in primary colours
At the time the necromunda redemptionist gang went down quite badly in the united states if I recall correctly. Many GW stores in the states didn’t carry that boxed set as a rule. But I do have to point out that GW have given enough villan archetype races characters and evil do ers to get by with.
ancient civilizations around the world. It remains widely used in Indian Religions, specifically in Hinduism, Buddhism and Jainism, primarily as a sacred symbol of good luck.
I understand that the incorporation with Nazi ideology has tainted the symbol to something it isn’t but still I can understand the lack of taste it could promote in gaming circles.
I would end my mumblings and odd sentences with something linked to the swastika before it became a propaganda tool for a Austrian house painter.
It is important not to waste human life in evil ways. Rather, strive to rise on the ladder of spiritual evolution.
I’ve yet to come across an evil dwarf (meaning fantasy creature, not person of small stature) who has been offended by my army.
I think however well intentioned, bringing real world iconography into GW games is bound to lead to ethical issues for the creator because it says a lot about them (why they wanted to include them). If I were into historical gaming I wouldn’t have a problem buying a russian or nazi army (or ‘WWII Germans’ as they are sold), because for me they are only toy soldiers.
Sometimes people have difficulty with separating the game from the real world, and forget the self-contradictions. They are fine with you playing an army that murders and enslaves people in order to expand their empire, but as soon as you stick a swastika on something they suddenly get uneasy as if you are promoting anti-semitism.
cornixt
That's not strange at all. When you start slapping swastikas (the nazi-version) on stuff where it does not "belong" one has to ask, why? It's only natural to take the logical leap that it is to homage or show "allegiance".
And then they go home and play Wolfenstein.
cornixt
Well, Wolfenstein is anti-Nazi... as in the protagonist battles them.
It's that taking the symbols out of their natural context which tends to become problematic. Since you are then left without an "excuse" for why you have them. Especially when you incorporate them in settings where they have no place at all. So you are applying a symbol which only has meaning through it's real world association. So why exactly are you using it then?
As seen so far it's a tricky question of what you "can do" or "can't do". Ultimately to me the question becomes, how committed to your theme are you? Are you prepared to become "that guy"? Will you eventually get tired of explaining your motivations to people when they inevitably ask, "why"? Especially if you know you are going to get a reaction. Is it really worth it?
Same principles can apply to models e.g. from this thread:http://www.chaos-dwarfs.com/forum/showthread.php?tid=9656 or the Slaanesh army I've heard about with banners featuring pornographic material.
As seen so far it's a tricky question of what you "can do" or "can't do". Ultimately to me the question becomes, how committed to your theme are you? Are you prepared to become "that guy"? Will you eventually get tired of explaining your motivations to people when they inevitably ask, "why"? Especially if you know you are going to get a reaction. Is it really worth it?
snowblizz
Yeah - this is a very good point. Do you really want to be the person who spent hours of their lives painting swastikas onto your Imperial Guard (or whatever...) just to prove some sort of political point about freedom of speech? Hey, I'm all for creative expression, but in a game of toy soldiers which is primarily intended to be an amusing pastime, often for people who might be quite young and impressionable, is it really appropriate?
For example, I will defend to the death the right of consenting adults to do whatever the hell they like to one another, film it and put it on the internet for me to download in the form of streaming videos for my personal enjoyment (*cough*), but that doesn't mean I think it should be broadcast in schools, or on daytime television or indeed to anyone who doesn't know exactly what it is they're getting into.
When you play a wargame, you're making an implicit contract with the person on the other side of the table that you're both doing it to have fun and to bring enjoyment (of a different kind to the one I'm getting from the streaming videos, probably) to everyone involved. I would argue that if you do something which is intentionally controversial, something which you know perfectly well may be offensive, and you don't necessarily know how well it'll go down, you're really breaking that contract. I have some models which I would describe as unsuitable for children to be exposed to - not that I think nudity is at all unhealthy, but it isn't my place as a strange adult to be showing someone else's kids miniature boobs: that's a quick way to get on a register - so, if I was playing a pick up game in an unfamiliar venue, I'd leave those models at home. That's basic politeness. It's awareness of your audience and the suitability of the material you present.
I had a simla problem with making a Pygmy army and the only way that it felt ok to use/make was when I thought of useing snotlings as a tribe of pygmy goblins thou i never got beyond sketching ideas down
Alright what you all said makes sence. So all in all we are limited but most importantly if its ok with your regular group you can go ahead and do it. The key is to just be aware of who and where you take it if you take that said army out of just your usual gaming circle. Thank you for all your input it was just something that came up in recent conversation and was nagging at me.
