[Archive] New Idea for Hobgoblin Brainstorm

Hobgoblyn:

It’s been almost a year since I completed the last version of the Hobgoblin book and I was thinking of revisiting the issue of how they coud be reinterpreted to work within both Orc and Chaos Dwarf armies without stepping on any pre-existing toes while having potential as an all-Hobgoblin force.

My first idea is to have the Hobgoblins handle animosity differently than other greenskins do. They’ll be the tactical members of the army, so they aren’t going to be charging towards any enemy models. The best alternative I’ve come up with for your Waagh! rolls of 6 is the unit getting a +1 to hit. Since I’m envisioning primarily archer units for them, this should be quite useful.

In terms of Lords and Heroes, a standard military version of each would be obvious. Obiously they could take 2 hand weapons, spears, mounts, bows and heavy armor, but perhaps to make them unique they can make their weapons Poison for a small upgrade fee without needing to take magic weapons.

On the magic side, perhaps they could go without a Magic Lord which can be left in the hands of the Chaos Dwarfs, Orc & Goblins, but can take a Magic Hero who uses generic Shadows and Beasts magic. This would allow the player to get a basic amount of magic and a dispell scroll in their army while not allowing the Hobgoblin wizards to displace the Chaos Dwarf or Orc & Goblin ones.

Basic Hobgoblin footsloggers just wouldn’t exist. Footsloggers would either be Archers or Scouts (Sneaky Gits). Both Chaos Dwarfs and Orcs & Goblins have footslogging melee well covered. While Hobgoblin Archers would compete with Arrer Boys, the Hobgoblins would be a bit cheaper to start with (say 5pts/model) however they could take long bows for +2pts/model. This will give the person creating the army the choice of two 7pt/model archer units, one with better toughness and leadership and one with better range.

Within a Chaos Dwarf army, they’d work out fine. Goblins could be moved up to core allowing them to take up the role of catching arrows while the Hobgoblin units deal out the ranged attacks.

Scouts is something neither army currently has, so bumping the Sneaky Gits to Scouts would allow them to do something neither army can do now. It also covers a major weakness in both which is a method for dealing with war machines and monsters. But having a scouting unit with poisoned attacks, you can get the jump on the enemies nasty units with these guys and take them down early-- or at least force them to concentrate on the Sneaky Gits.

Just like the Hogoblins on foot, the Hobgoblin Wolfriders could start with bows allowing them to avoid clashing with the Goblin Wolfriders. By making them default archers and then allowing them to take spears and shields to upgrade into medium cavarly, they inherantly fulfill a role that Bull Centaurs, Orc Boarriders and Goblin Wolfriders can’t fill-- mobile shooters.

Of course, I still think Hobhounds are a definate must. Straight wolf-stats with a -1 Move, +1 Strength and -1 Initiative at 8pts a piece led by a Beastmaster with Ld of 6 would make for a cheap, easily destroyed unit-- but one that if ignored has enough punch to make enemies feel the pinch for doing so.

For the Special slot version of the Hobgoblin Wolfriders, in order to avoid clashing with the Boarriders or the Bull Centaurs which are both heavy-damage, low-armored cavarly, Hobgoblin Cataphracts would flip that and have heavy armor, shields and spears with no upgrade to lances. This means they’ll only do S4 attacks on the charge, but they’ll have a 3+ save. Some kind of ability to allow them to hit and run might also make them interesting.

And for the Rare Slot, a super heavy and nasty cavarly unit that relies on having big mounts would fill the need. I still think it would be best to stick with Hobgoblins mounted on Tigers or something that has the stats of the Ogre Kingdom’s Sabretusks.

I’m thinking War Machines can be dropped, no more need for Hobgoblin Bolt Throwers because Goblins have Bolt Throwers and Catapults and Chaos Dwarfs ought to have a nice selection of War Machines on their own.

Dead Kennedy:

Hobgoblins with longbows as troop choices are awesome. I would offer a suggestion though: having armaments other than bows would make them very useful. Bows/spears, bows/2 hw, all of these things would be excellent. That would make a superior option to similar troop choices, but only if you want to spend the points. Longbows are something I am glad to see.

I like the version of skirmishing Sneaky Gits you proposed as well. As another skirmishing option, what about a hunter unit? Sneaky Gits for hand to hand ambush, hunters as a shooting skirmisher unit. In stats its not that different from an Imperial Archer.

A more expensive foot troop choice would be nice too. Hobgoblins with pikes, heavy armour and shield would make for one heck of a great unit. Pikes are not going to stick around in warhammer unless they get into army lists, and I can’t see GW doing it any time soon. A khan’s guard, a foot tribe, or caravan guard. A city hobgoblin out on campaign, rather than a free-wheeling barbarian.

A special unit wolf rider unit would have to be pretty special to compete with warmachines and other shiny things.

Also, to clarify: which Chaos Dwarf army lists would you slot these options into? Ravening Hordes is alright but it is one of the oldest army lists still in use.

Hobgoblyn:

Well, like the Brettonians I suppose I could put the option to make one unit of archers skirmishers.

I don’t think heavily armed hobgoblin footsloggers seems likely. First, it is unlikely that Hobgoblins on foot would actually be able to get anywhere to fight anyone other than Ogres, Cathay or Chaos. Other than those who are Chaos Dwarf slaves, they’ve got to travel a long way from home before they meet anyone else so Hobgoblins you find in Orc & Goblin armies for instance would be raiding parties.

Furthermore, they’d only have a limited amount of heavy armor available to them. They aren’t in the business of mining ore, those that have heavy armor have repaired human armor which just happens to be about the right size for them. So those units should only be found in Special, Rare and Character options and be generally at least 15-points a piece to limit how much armor is showing up on the battlefield.

The other problem with footsloggers is that generally the core of a Hobgoblin force is the Wolfriders. So anything else in the army needs to be able to support it. Other cavarly units obviously fulfill that need, scout units cut the time needed to get to the other side of the board in half and thus support them and ranged attackers (archers) can also hit the enemy early on without taking any real risk to that unit (except maybe from enemy scouts). However, melee models on foot can’t support the wolfriders-- by the time they even get into battle, the battle has already been won or lost. This goes double for a solely defensive unit like the pikemen.

The pikeman on the battlefield could do only one of two things.

Either you spend the first half of the game waiting for them to charge you down, which the enemy likely isn’t going to be dumb enough to do since they aren’t going to be taking many, if any, casualties and instead will almost certainly be able to use their magic, guns and/or war machines to tear you to pieces making the pikemen a waste of points.

Or the pikemen are going to slowly march towards the battle while your cavarly units take off and your scouts ambush them, by the time they even get into battle you’ll either have been able to out-manuever and destroy their units and the battle is already won or they’ll have already routed your other units causing them to flee which would probably cause the pikemen to panic and even if it doesn’t, the enemy would have no trouble sweeping in and removing the pikemen from the board (and the likelihood that any of the remaining enemy are even cavarly is low).

Pikemen would work in an army that utilized heavy gunlines and warmachines, maybe they could be utilized in a Grand Army of Cathay army list, but there just isn’t any use for them in a cavarly army that needs to go on the offense, stay on the offense and run rings around the enemy if they have any hope of survival.

Dead Kennedy:

On heavy armour: presuming that heavy armour belongs on 15 point models is pretty over the top. Hobgoblins might not be big on mining, but they excel in the loot and pillage. Nomads also get around a lot and do need to trade for things when they can’t meet all their needs.

Saying a unit is on foot, and thus cannot fight around the Warhammer World, is a pretty flimsy premise. Lizardmen seemingly show up all the time, and Lustria is a popular campaign destination. A great goblin khan mobilizing his troops could sweep the land, however you want to slice it. But just saying “it’s a long walk to Altdorf” does not preclude their presence on a fantasy battlefield. I know that is your take on hobgoblins, but I think that kind of reasoning doesn’t hold water in a game of implausible battles.

Also, you didn’t engage with the comment on combined-arms units. There are examples like the Boyar trooper, with a bow and great weapon, and I don’t think this is terribly overpowered. You got a bow for when he’s running at you, a spear for when he gets to you (which seems like an almost revolutionary idea in Warhammer at times! ;))



Also, is this meant for Ravening Hordes or its own list? It’s still unclear to me. Posting the stats you already came up with would be handy too.

Hobgoblyn:

The main goal would be to have them synch with Orcs & Goblins and Ogre Kingdoms until there are some new Chaos Dwarf rules for them to play alongside. Then again, many people here came up with rules for Chaos Dwarf units so one could say an unofficial list already exists.

Of course wolfriders can have bows and spears! In fact, I am thinking that since one has Goblin Wolfriders available, the Hobgoblin Wolfriders could come preequipped with a bow for a few more points so that if you want cheap spear units you can go with the Goblins. In fact, I’m thinking all core Hobgoblins could have bows which could be quite a lot of fun (particularly when you roll 1 twice on your animosity rolls and they begin shooting each other).

I guess I could give archers the ability to take a second hand weapon as well as skirmish-- that would allow them to be able to fight in melee (to some extent) without increasing their armor higher than a ranged unit should have their armor increased. But even then, I’m figuring an archer for 4-points, with a second hand weapon it would only pump them up to 5-points a pop, still plenty cheap enough for you to rank up if you really want to. Not sure they could absorb a charge well (other than stand-and-shoot), but they’d be able to tear into an enemy unit for more turns than one would normally be able to.

I’ve already posted the stats for the units I’ve got so far in both the main discussion forum and on Da Warpath forum.

Dead Kennedy:

Not wolfriders with bows and spears, infantry with bows and spears. That’s what I meant from the get-go.

A cheap hobgoblin archer that could fight back with multiple attacks would be great. Are you still thinking of having archers as the only unit choice, with skirmishing being a special rule/paid option? I’d suggest a cap, 1 ranked for 1 skirmish.

I could see the ideas really fleshing out the Ogre Kingdoms book in an awesome way. They could really use new blood, and would allow their big lads more freedom on the battlefield.

There’s less to discuss in this thread if you expect other posters to visit the right forum and happen upon it. Going to another thread is a bit of a pain if you want to reference it while you comment.

Hobgoblyn:

Hobgoblin Special Rules:

Hobgoblins follow all the same rules for Orcs & Goblins with a few exceptions.

1) When performing a Waagh! Hobgoblins only get a +1 to their roll as if they were Goblins. Although they are embolden by the zealousness of their allies, they do not get swept up into the excitement. Furthermore, an army led by a Hobgoblin Khan may never call a Waagh!.

2) Hobgoblin Ilbici do not use typical Greenskin magic since they are not as intune with Gork & Mork as Shamans. So they do not use the special Greenskin Magic rules.

3) Hobgoblin units are considered to by Goblin units for nonHobgoblin units that have the Ignore Goblin Panic, but Hobgoblin units do not ignore other Hobgoblin units even though they too have Ignore Goblin Panic.

4) Hobgoblins are archery and flanking specialists, so when you make an Animosity roll of 6, they do not move D6" towards the closest unit. Instead, they gain a +1 to hit with all attacks until the end of the turn.

5) Hobgoblins and Black Orcs despise one another. Hobgoblin units ignore the effects of Quell Animosity from Black Orcs. Furthermore, Hobgoblin units will fire at Black Orc unit if one is within 12" when it rolls the Get 'em effect on the Animosity table even if there is another Greenskin unit that is closer.

Beasts: Hobhounds are simple animals that are not highly valued and therefore they do not cause other units to panic when they break, flee or are destroyed.

Mounts

                    M  WS BS  S  T  W  I  A  Ld
Giant Wolf         9  3  0   3  3  1  3  1  3
Sabretusk          8  4  0   4  4  2  4  3  4
Sabretusk Special Rules: Cause Fear

Lords

Hobgoblin Khan
Points/model: 80
M  WS BS S  T  W  I  A  Ld
4  6  5  4  4  3  5  4  8
Equipment: Hand Weapon

Options:

* May have an additional hand weapon (+3pts) or a spear (+3pts)

* May carry a bow (+9pts) or a longbow (+15pts)

* Weapons may be poisoned (+6pts)

* May wear light armor (+3pts) or heavy armor (+6pts)

* May carry a shield (+3pts)

* May be mounted on a giant wolf (+18pt) which may be barded (+6pts) or a sabretusk (+35)

* May choose magic items from Common or Orc & Goblin magic item lists with a maximum total value of 100pts

Special Rules:

Ignore Goblin Panic

Heroes

Hobgoblin Noyan
Points/model: 40
M  WS BS  S  T  W  I  A  Ld
4  5  4   4  4  2  4  3  7
Equipment: Hand Weapon

Options:

* May have an additional hand weapon (+2pts) or a spear (+2pts)

* May carry a bow (+6pts) or a longbow (+10pts)

* Weapons may be poisoned (+4pts)

* May wear light armor (+2pts) or heavy armor (+4pts)

* May carry a shield (+2pts)

* May be mounted on a giant wolf (+12pts) which may be barded (+4pts)

* May choose magic items from Common or Orc & Goblin magic item lists with a maximum total value of 50pts

Special Rules:

Ignore Goblin Panic

Hobgoblin Ilbici
Points/model: 50
M  WS BS  S  T  W  I  A  Ld
4  3  3   3  3  2  2  1  6
Equipment: Hand weapon

Magic: An Ilbici is a Level 1 Wizard. He may choose from the Lores of Shadow or Beast.

Options:

* May be upgraded to a Level 2 Wizard for +35pts

* May ride a wolf (+12pts) which can have barding (+4pts)

* May choose magic items from Common or Orc & Goblin magic item lists with a maximum total value of 50pts

Special Rules:

Ignore Goblin Panic

Core

Hobgoblin Hunters
Points/model: 4
                    M  WS BS  S  T  W  I  A  Ld
Hobgoblin          4  3  3   3  3  1  2  1  6
Hobgoblin Boss     4  3   4  3  3  1  2  2  6
Unit Size: 10+

Equipment: Hand weapons, light armor & bows.

Options:

* Any unit may be given a second hand weapon for +1pt/model

* Any unit may be exchange their bows for longbows for +2pt/model

* One unit per an army may become Skirmishers for +1pt/model

* Upgrade one Hobgoblin to Musician for +5pts

* Upgrade one Hobgoblin to Standard Bearer for +9pts

* Upgrade one Hobgoblin to Hobgoblin Boss for +9pts

Special Rules:

Animosity, Ignore Goblin Panic

Hobgoblin Wolfriders
Points/model: 13
                    M  WS BS  S  T  W  I  A  Ld
Hobgoblin          4  3  3   3  3  1  2  1  6
Hobgoblin Boss     4  3  4   3  3  1  2  2  6
Giant Wolf         9  3  0   3  3  1  3  1  3
Unit Size: 5+

Equipment: Hand weapons, light armor & bows.

Options:

* Any unit may be equipped with spears for +1pt/model

* Any unit may be equipped with shields for +2pt/model, but will no longer count as Fast Cavarly.

* Upgrade one Hobgoblin to Musician for +8pts

* Upgrade one Hobgoblin to Standard Bearer for +14pts

* Upgrade one Hobgoblin to Hobgoblin Boss for +14pts

Special Rules:

Animosity, Ignore Goblin Panic, Fast Cavarly

Hobhounds
Points/model: 8
                    M  WS BS  S  T  W  I  A  Ld
Hobhound           7  3  0   4  3  1  2  1  3
Beastmaster        4  3  3   3  3  1  2  1  6
Giant Wolf         9  3  0   3  3  1  3  1  3
Unit Size: 10+

Equipment: Teeth & Claws

Options:

* The unit must be led by a Hobgoblin Beastmaster equipped with light armor, hand weapon and shield mounted on a giant wolf for 14pts

Special Rules:

Beasts

This Unit does not count towards the minimum requisite core units of the army.

Special Units

Hobgoblin Sneaky Gitz
Points/model: 9
                    M  WS BS  S  T  W  I  A  Ld
Sneaky Gitz        4  4  4   3  3  1  3  1  6
Sneaky Git Boss    4  4   4  3  3  1  3  2  6
Unit Size: 10+

Equipment: Two Hand weapons

Options:

* Any unit may be given poisoned throwing daggers for +2pt/model

* Any unit may be given light armor for +1pt/model

* Upgrade one Hobgoblin to Sneaky Git Boss for +11pts

Special Rules:

Animosity, Ignore Goblin Panic, Poisoned Weapons, Scouts, Skirmishers

Hobgoblin Cataphracts
Points/model: 18
                    M  WS BS  S  T  W  I  A  Ld
Cataphract         4  4  4   3  3  1  2  1  7
Cataphract Boss    4  4  4   3  3  1  2  2  7
Giant Wolf         9  3  0   3  3  1  3  1  3
Unit Size: 5+

Equipment: Hand weapon, spears, shields & heavy armor

Options:

* Any unit may be equipped with bows for +2pt/model

* Any unit may be give barding to their wolves for +2pt/model

* Upgrade one Hobgoblin to Musician for +8pts

* Upgrade one Hobgoblin to Standard Bearer for +14pts

* Upgrade one Cataphract to Cataphract Boss for +14pts

Special Rules:

Animosity, Ignore Goblin Panic

Rare

Sabretusk Raiders
Points/model: 32
                    M  WS BS  S  T  W  I  A  Ld
Raider             4  4  4   3  4  2  3  1  8
Raider Boss        4  4  4   3  4  2  3  2  8
Sabretusk          8  4  0   4  4  1  4  3  4
Unit Size: 5+

Equipment: Hand weapon, spears, shields & heavy armor

Options:

* Any unit may be given bows for +2pt/model

* Upgrade one Hobgoblin to Musician for +10pts

* Upgrade one Hobgoblin to Standard Bearer for +20pts

* Upgrade one Raider to Raider Boss for +20pts

* May carry a magic banner worth up to 50pts

Special Rules:

Animosity, Ignore Goblin Panic, Cause Fear

Hobgoblyn:

Things I’d like to be able to do with this list to make it more competitive:

1) Find a way to deal with armies that are all fear-causing and fearless (specifically undead and daemons) who are right now impossible to beat with these units (and you’d struggle even with Orc&Goblins backed up by these units).

2) Find a way to counter Dwarfs who both have Hate Greenskins and are immune to flanking/back attacks, have the anvil to slow down all units as well as having too high of T, armor and Ld to be beaten by bows effectively nullifying everything this list does.

3) Find a way to counter Brettonians who are just as fast but get super heavy armor (3+, 2+, 1+ saves on nearly everything) and only need to take 3 models per a rank allowing them to just direct-charge while you are required to flank-attack.

Dead Kennedy:

Just noticed the hobhounds are fast cavalry. Is this a reasonable idea? A lot of fast cavalry rules seem to rely on training and being organized (reforming, planning to flee, etc) and I think it is debatable if the hobhounds would be organized enough to do it. The analogue of chaos hounds do not have fast cavalry rules, and I think that is something to consider. Also, the armament of a shield on the beastmaster would invalidate the fast cavalry, if you were using the “shield = not fast cav” paradigm. I was thinking that this unit would be a great way to mitigate not having traditional fighty foot units, and the S4 attacks will come in handy.

Sneaky gits: poisoned throwing weapons for a point? Should that be bumped up a bit? It’s a short range attack, but on a lone character/warmachine crew that would be a nasty volley.

Hobgoblin Cataphracts: If they start without fast cavalry, why not just include the shield from the get-go? I still think a special rule of some kind would make these guys shine. There are only 3 points difference between the standard wolf rider and the cataphract. I do like the boost to WS/BS, but what about a leadership boost? Surely they’d be more confident than the average wolf boy. Bows as standard would also be a nice touch, but as an option it does cut down on the base cost.

Are you thinking of expanding this to incorporate magic standards, weapons etc? That would be one place to introduce some things to overcome fear, address some particular weakness. It’s also a bit of a cop-out move, though… “buy this when you fight undead/demons!” Your sabertusk unit does cause fear, so at least that one can mitigate the effects of fear-causers (but it’s rare so it won’t get much use).

Hobgoblyn:

Chaos hounds don’t have fast cavarly? Neither do Dire Wolves? If this is the case (and I’ll have to double check) then I’ll go ahead and make that change.

The rest of your points are entirely correct and I’ll go ahead and make those changes right now. (in fact, they are done if you check). I’ll make the change to the hobhounds now and double check if you are right when I get home.

I could put a few unique items or banners in the list, I think. Afterall, there are Orc-only and Goblin-only items and I am sure there are items in the O&G magic item list I want to forbid use of. So if you can come up with a method for combating demons, undead, Brettonians and/or Dwarfs even using unique magic items, I’ll go for it.

Hobgoblyn:

I think I might have came up with the solution I was looking for.

The Hobgoblin Wolfriders and Cataphracts could have this ability

Breakthrough - Hobgoblin Wolfriders are particularly quick and sneaky. When encountering a unit that is too proud or fearless to fall back and instead stands its ground, the Hobgoblins may slip right through their ranks without the enemy realizing what has happened. When a Hobgoblin mounted on a wolf wins combat against a unit that is Unbreakable or a unit that is Stubborn and does not break, the Hobgoblin unit may choose to breakthrough the opponent’s unit. The Hobgoblin unit moves 3d6" through the enemy unit in a straight line. If this distance is too short for the entire Hobgoblin unit in the direction the Hobgoblin unit is already facing to the other side of the enemy unit then the Hobgoblin unit is caught and killed in their attempt.

However, if the distance is far enough, then roll a d6 for every member of the Hobgoblin unit. On the roll of a 2+, the model is fine. However, on the roll of a 1 the model is caught and killed by the enemy as the unit races through the enemy formation. The Hobgoblin unit must travel the full distance indicated on the dice unless this would impact impassable terrain, in which case the unit stops at the edge of the impassable terrain. If the Hobgoblin unit cannot be placed between the enemy unit and an impassable terrain that they would impact, the unit is caught and killed.

Although the enemy unit is not destroyed in this manuever, this move is considered to be an Overrun movement in all other ways and is treated as such except where the above description differs.

TheWyrmLord:

Hmm…I was thinking since now normal Gobbos can ride Giant Spiders as mounts, why can’t Hobgoblin characters ride something like giant scorpions?

Hashut’s Blessing:

Because the rules don’t allow it, lol :smiley:

Just kidding (although it’s true). If you can explain the source of the giant scorpion, go for it :smiley: Could use a basic wolf profile or use the tomb scorpion as a rough guide (or the 6th edition High Elf book, which has giant scorpions in it).

TheWyrmLord:

Hmm…I would imagine the scorpion being stronger than the spider, have Poisoned attacks, have Scaly Skin (to count its carapace), and causes Fear.

Thommy H:

I always thought Death Worms would make a good mount for Shamans - it’s a reference to the “Mongolian Death Worm” cryptid and my image of it is like that big sand worm thing from Dune with a little Hobgoblin riding it. They tunnel under the ground and their flesh crackles with electricity - maybe they’re a mutated form of Blue Dragon (“Death Wyrm”?) or something. The Shamans are the only ones able to control them, using their magic.

Hobgoblyn:

There actually would be a good reason they couldn’t…

First, they are likely at least double the weight of forest goblins. Thus you’d need something quite large to carry them. So their weight would probably crush a Scorpion unless it was really, REALLY large.

The other problem is thematics. The hobgoblins are a cold-weather type of greenskin. Scorpions suggest harsh, hot, dry desert climate which is the exact opposite of their theme. To my knowledge Scorpions don’t exist in the Siberian forests or the asian steppes, but wolves, tigers, bears and large birds of prey do

Thommy H:

“Steppe” covers everything from near-desert to tundra, actually.

Leon Brachwurster:

Maybe the resurgence of the Cockatrace or a Rock Bassilisk for a monster mount? Possible a Mountain Chimera from the 8thed rule book? Just snowballing ideas…

Fallen246:

Just my two cents: I’m not certain the title “Hobgoblin Hunters” sounds very… Hobgoblin-esque?

To me, Hobgoblins would be a very raiding orientated army, full of cunning and sneaky tricks. Therefore, a title indicating that they say, stalk/pursue/track their foes or somkething else along those lines might be more fitting.

Additionally, I can understand the desire to avoid ranked up infantry like Orcs and Goblins, but removing the possibility of infantry with spears and/or shields is a bit odd considering they have had the ability to use them before, and all other greenskins have easily managed to arm themselves the same way. Maybe some Skirmishing unit with a Throwing Spear/Javelin equivalent (like Chaos Marauder Horsemen) that can sort of use the weapons as spears in combat (but still gain no rank bonus, or steadfast etc. the same as normal skirmishers)?

Thommy H:

Therefore, a title indicating that they say, stalk/pursue/track their foes or somkething else along those lines might be more fitting.
I think "hunters" is exactly the word you're looking for, actually.